Telephone
Helpline
Discussions
& Chats
Case
Histories
Available
Downloads

You are not logged in.

Facebook Twitter Google Digg Reddit LinkedIn Pinterest StumbleUpon Email

In order to post messages to this discussion board click here to login/register

Back

Home Register

Martin

Joined:
Posts:
Location:

Message

Subject: what next? Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:40:14

I have, at times, fancied my hand as a playwrite. The lights dim, an eerie mist wafts across the floor, and Obi retreats to the right, with just one quick cursory glance over his shoulder. The silence is deafening for a while... eventually some chatter amongst ordinary folk going about their business is audible. And then, suddenly, and totally by surprise, there is a big clap of thunder... lightning fills the whole arena... and entering the stage from the left is.... SABRI! And Owl is happy again lol, and everyone did, in the end, live happily ever after...

Replies

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

All you can do is promise to buy him another one, and to keep it safe at your house. We know why she does it obi. Her hate for you outweighs her love for your son. :o( I used to see the things I bought mine for sale on ebay!

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

there are times when i just feel so utterly helpless and frustrated- i have been in the Police for 19-years, 5 of those as a detective and with all of the murderers, rapists, sex offenders I have dealt with - i have ony met a couple that disgust me as much as she does. there are no words i can say that can give you or anyone how much i loathe that woman. a woman that has given life (with a small assistance from me) to my beautiful sons... i just dont get how someone can end with such a poisonous hatred- that they are willing to act in such a sadistical way. its beyond my understanding.

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

You will never understand it obi because the mentality is alien to your nature.

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Do you keep a diary of these events? If not, you should.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

i can see it now... owl- \'it wont stop her obi- but by you disengaging it will help you deal with her actions- that may very well turn out to have happened by accident... also, you did break your own rules and allow him to take it home- so it\'s actually your fault.\' have you ever thought that by breathing you are provoking her to respond by behaving sadistically towards you (and by proxy the children)? \'have you ever thought that your existance on this world and the lucky chance of your existance have caused this problem?\' gee- owl no... i didnt... but come to think about it... BANG...

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

whats the point of a diary ray? to whom do i show it? the kids? they already tell me they think thier mum is quote: \'mad as a fish\'... court? CAFCASS? will they believe me without corroborating evidence? i used to keep one - but since the court refused to allow it to be used in evidence... mind you- next time we go - I wont be bargaining outside- i have made that error before- we will go into court and let the judge see exactly what we are up against...

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

owl can obviously disconnect herself from her emotions and how she feels about her chidren- thats how she deals with problems - it dont hurt me cos i dont get affected because its not me - sort of thing... i cant do that... because my feelings for my sons are greater than my sense of self preservation- now... i know i have issues around the split- not because of her- because i will never forgive myself for leaving them with such a vile person.

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Yes obi, you keep it so show whoever will listen in the future. You are going to be applying to court for residency at some point in the future. The diary will show the pattern of abuse that their mother dishes out to your children. If the courts/CAFCASS wont look at it, it will refreshen your memory of past events, and you may have use to refer to it.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

ok.. i will... i still have the diary from before- i suppose i should start to write in it again...

Ess

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:57

Hi Obi I don\'t know your story but from this post, she does sound pretty evil. I think it\'s so sad that your sons can\'t take stuff back and fourth with the confidence that mum will be happy for them because they\'ve got something from dad/gran/whoever, that made them happy. I am angry and probably bitter about my divorce, but it truly shocks me to see how someone that you once loved and shared your life with can become so foreign use your children. I always used to think it would get better over time, the resentment would fade as we both moved on, but in my case it\'s just got worse and worse and worse. Buy him another one, tell him it\'s something to look forward to playing with when he comes round and that you\'ll look after it while he\'s not there (don\'t lose it whatever you do!!!) I agree with ray - keep a diary, even if you never get to use it in a constructive way, it might help you to do it anyway. Take care

Teadrinker

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:18

I think you\'re absolutely right to keep toys at your house and not allow them to go back to their mum\'s. 4WIW, it isn\'t just PWCs who do things like this. My ex is NRP. A few years ago he took our son to visit friends for a weekend. He said it was up to him (son) to make sure he packed all his belongings for returning home and he gave instructions to the family they were visiting not to return anything that got left behind as he said our son \"had to learn\". Our son left two items behind. I considered phoning the family but felt awkward as I used to know them before our separation and have lost touch, so I just hoped they would return the items. They didn\'t.

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi, if this happened to my child I would hear their dissappointment that they had lost a much loved toy and asked them to reflect on what they need to do to ensure they don\'t leave things behind when they take their toys places to avoid it happening again. Then I\'d get them to ring the karting venue to see if it had been picked up, and also take them to the police station to report it missing. In doing this they learn to take responsibility for looking after their possessions. They also learn how to deal with dissappointments at losing things with some perspective (as they are only things and can be replaced, the world doesn\'t end etc). If you want to go ahead and buy him another one do, I\'m not sure that I necessarily would immediately, but thats up to you. Obi I would feel sad for my child that they were dissappointed at losing a possession but I wouldn\'t lose any sleep over it. Losing things is part of life. Dissappointments are part of life. Good parenting means supporting children to learn how to deal with those dissappointments and encouraging them to take personal responsibility for looking after their stuff. Good parenting also means keeping things in perspective and proportion. Perhaps you need to address your own issues around the divorce to do that for yourself first before you can do that for your children. You take care

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Obi, please dont respond to owl, she isnt worth it.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

lol... owl is as bonkers as she is... she does it on purpose to goad me..

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

i am very happy owl has said this... i thought i was going mad for a min...

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

Seems like this is not an uncommon problem - it\'s certainly cropped up on the boards before. I don\'t see the point of making it a diary item - too easily explained as a lesson. Don\'t break your own rules and it won\'t be a trigger point, and ring the karting place are practical suggestions. Also, is this your son who has LD? If so it may well be harder for him to keep organised so it\'s worth getting in the habit of running through a checklist with him when he leaves activities etc if you don\'t do this already - eg \'have you got your jacket, what else did you bring with you?\' That\'s a useful strategy for kids in general, so do it with both and he won\'t feel singled out and they\'ll end up mentally doing it even when you\'re aren\'t around.

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Good practical suggestions No idea. obi and ray, if you think my simple and straightforward suggestions approaches to parenting children are bonkers and mad then thats up to you. Most parenting experts would see them as good parenting strategies. What are you going to say and do for your son Obi if you are not going to do what I have suggested. I\'d be interested to hear what your parenting strategy is for this situation?

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

And here\'s me thinking that parents are supposed to protect and look out for their children!

skovby1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:27:32

Interesting how quickly this thread changed from \"boy has lost his toy\" to \"I bet Owl will say xyz\". The lesson to be learnt is what you knew already - keep valuable toys at your house because the mum is not interested in supporting anything from your end. No doubt that if she had spent her own hard-earned cash on the toy it would not have been left behind ! Concentrate on what you may have some control over yourself - namely teaching your son to look after his things and if not old enough to take them out responsibly, then make sure that he only plays with them when you and your new family are around. Hope your son is not too heart-broken (remember it\'s about HIM - not your ex or owl or anyone else posting here !!).

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

\"Most parenting experts would see them as good parenting strategies.\" I seriously doubt any \'parenting experts\' would advocate willfully causing a child distress simply to teach them a lesson, be that emotional, psycological or physical. Would you let a child run into the road to learn that it hurts to get hit by a car? Would you let a child put thier hand into a fire to learn that it hurts to get burned?

Stuart

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

Actually I think that Owl does have a point...not that I always agree with her but hey, thats the beauty of free speech! I know its really hard Obi, I too have been in a similar situation in the past but believe me when I say things DO get better in time. Even if your ex fails to loosen her grip on her hatred your children become more empowered as they get older. In my case my ex still hates me with a passion but my lad who is 11 sees through all her silliness and largely ignores her. It has the effect of making her look like the child and her embarrassment makes her stop her bad behaviour. Oh and of course the fact the she has married a pretty decent bloke who I can communicate with regarding my lad.

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Ray, parents can\'t always protect their children from everything and part of parenting is encouraging children to take responsibility for themselves and assistinh them to positvely handle disappointments and situations they don\'t like. Skovby and Stuart make good points, this is about Obi\'s son and doing what is best for him as a result here. Obi can handle this positively for his son. But then what do I know? After all I only have 22 years of parenting experience and 3 well adjusted successful, resourceful, ambitious and articulate young adults who interact well all those they come across who just happen to call me Mum and love and respect me to gauge the success of my parenting opinions and strategies by.

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Ray, perhaps you should go and read what some of the parenting experts advocate. So long as there is not a risk to physical safety many advocate allowing children to experience the natural consequences of their actions in order for them to learn. Some children are experiential learners anyway in that they learn best by experience. I know my eldest sort of had to learn this way before she would get it. She still does to a certain extent but is nor fully self aware of that. If you told her as a young child, if you do this x, y, z will happen she would do it anyway and then learn her lesson.

Martin

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:40:14

My parenting strategy in this situation would have been to pick the toy up, and give the kid a cuff round the ear for leaving it behind.

Teadrinker

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:18

\"Most parenting experts would see them as good parenting strategies.\" RoS, there\'s a world of difference between letting your child see the consequences of being careless with his toys and letting your child run into the road to learn the consequences of being run over by a car! Though I have to say I\'ve known people who take the attitude that their child will eventually learn not to run into the road and don\'t actually stop them doing it, just tell them off afterwards each time. I don\'t think it\'s difficult to tell a child that his toys at your house have to be kept at your house. You don\'t need to say it\'s because their mum will hide/break them. You can just say it\'s best to keep different toys at each house as it\'s easy for things to get lost or broken if you keep taking them back and forth. I\'m amused by Owl\'s idea of reporting the Wall E robot missing at a police station. Umm, are the police not very busy in NZ? I don\'t think the police here would appreciate being asked to spend time noting a lost toy.

Teadrinker

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:18

Just to add, in case it wasn\'t clear, I don\'t actually agree with the parents who let their children run in the road and think they\'ll learn the lesson by being told off afterwards each time!

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Well all I can say is that I would obviously have been a crap parent then. My first and only reaction to realising the toy was being left behind would to tell my child to go get it. There are far less stressfull and upsetting ways of teaching children things.

Bookmartpa

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:28:16

What the hell am I reading... Owl comes on to make comments which make real sense and ends up getting a hammering. How bizarre. And how absurd that the issue of a small toy (? I think) seems to have assumed a level of importance which is beyond all reason. Christ Obi, without knowing how old your child is, I have a good book next to me called Auschwitz and the Final Solition. A quick read, and a look at some of the photos might put the loss of a small toy in some perespective.

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

TD, the police here still have lost property departments! Its not uncommon for things to be picked up and handed in to the police station for people to collect. So i\'d always tell my kids to go down the station and check if anyone had handed it in. My son lost his wallet once and it was handed in with the 20 dollars still in it. Another time he lost his mobile in town. We got a call at home from the police saying someone had just handed it ithem in the street. We phoned his mate that he was with, who told us where he was and son and the policemen were able to rendez-vous in town for the hand over.

Teadrinker

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:18

Owl, I\'m not sure what the police here would do if someone tried to hand in lost property. I suspect they would only deal with it if it was valuable or perhaps like you say, a mobile, as they can ring the owner on it. I reckon they\'d be either annoyed or amused if someone tried to hand in a toy! RoS, I agree that if you know where you think it is, you\'d take the child to try to get it back. But I do sometimes say to my son that if he wants to take a particular item when we\'re going out, it\'s up to him to remember it. Only when it\'s not essential! And then if he doesn\'t remember, even after I\'ve reminded him several times, he learns that it\'s up to him to remember and that I\'m not Mary Poppins with a bottomless bag!

tinuviel

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:31:41

Yes in normal circumstances children need to learn to look after their stuff etc etc. There are lessons to be learnt and there is an element of that here. But, perhaps Obi knows all this and you cannot call this a normal circumstance. Darth sounds like an evil witch to me and Obi needs someone to sound off to. It’s the thin end of the wedge, just another example of her “abnormal” behaviour. Sorry Obi not a lot you can do about it really, but I would keep your stuff at home in future and maybe start routines of getting both of them to check their belongings more.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

book- i know about Auschwitz and the Final Solition- i have been to auschwitz- its in Poland... i dont think its appropriate to show an 8 or 10 year old pictures from the worse atrocity of the 20th century... I got the toy back in my lunch break- it seems the kind staff had put it aside... if you are going to play that card book- why are you even posting because nothing on her - not even the people beaten half to death can compare with a concentration camp... i mean... come on... this is a bitching board... how can you compare it... anyway- owl talks sense mixed with crap... with me she is slightly different - she seems to take some perverse pleasure in NEVER criticising my ex- me yeah no prob- accusing me of all sorts of stuff- i used take it VERY personally- but this thread has showed me what owl is about- and i dont think anything she can say could do can upset me... as to the NZ police- i am sure like us they have better things to do with thier time... but since x didnt even call the centre where the toy was i doubt she would go to the actual station... she knows that my son being upset -upsets me... which is why she does these things... as to good parenting- i think if i had been in that situation i would have told him off or even given him a consquence to deal with but - he was very upset and scared to tell me because he knows he did wrong... i never shout at my sons- i dont have to - i am the adult... but i couldnt see him upset without trying to prevent it... he has his issues... anyway... its clear that owl and I (and a good portion of the world) are diametrically opposed- and will never agree on stuff like this... i wont post anymore stuff like this... i will just tell you all about the REALLY serious stuff... oh and book... i trust you will be watching the board now to post your death-camp comments when people say stuff like \'my ex hubby didnt call last night?\'

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

\"I got the toy back in my lunch break- it seems the kind staff had put it aside...\" Well done! Another dastardly plan foiled lol

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi, the NZ police do have lost property departments, its a service they provide. They don\'t go out looking for lost property but they do receive it. Lots of people here still hand things in and look after people. Thats just the society and people we are. We do stuff for others. We are less uptight and more relaxed too. Anyway this thread has shown me a lot about you Obi and your nature and personality, very revealing. I am not sure that we are diametrically opposed but we do have some differing views on parenting . Its a shame to hear your son is too scared to tell you stuff, I\'m not sure why he fears you. Perhaps its your reactions.

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

owl, I\'m sure you will find it is scared as in worried rather than scared as in frightened. eg \"I\'m scared of telling him what really happened..\" Nice sideswipe though lol

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Why does his son have that fear or worry?

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Probably heard that you thought his mum was a decent parent lol

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

scared? well its because i used to tie him to a stake in the garden and trash him to within an inch of his life... then he would be on bread and water for a week... or... he loves me and knows i would never punish him... and is concerned for my feelings... knowing i might be disappointed in his behaviour is upseting to him... or his mum thumps him for spilling a glass of pop... whereas i dont... but i guess when you are punished like that- all adults are threatening... i mean when he was naughty to mummie she took a pair of scissors to the TV to stop him watching it... so nice try- but good bye... why not just say it owl? you think i am the nutcase... and its my ex wife that is the real victim... and i terrorise my little boys... go on... i double dare you with cheese... you nasty incidious person- i really dont like your tone... you like your little mind games dont you owl? is that why your hubby divorced you?

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

You\'re showing yourself up more and more obi. If you have such a short fuse with Owl, what on earth are you like with your ex? You really need to get a grip.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

no offence noidea-but who made you owls defender? know this- i put up with years of abuse from my ex- i wont put up with any from owl. I think owl has her own issues with me she doesnt have the guts to say... she chips away at you instead... like an abuser. never again... never. if you dont see that- ok. re-read her posts- and look a bit deeper.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

today i have the news that she is moving both boys from a school they were placed at for their SEN needs to a catholic one... was i consulted? in any way? well why would she? its not like im am their dad is it... i think that the issues with owl are only with owl. i dont have issues with anyone else on the board. just owl. and now i am feeling like leaving the board again for a nice long time this time. not out of anger- but because i am tired of being abused by someone that really has not the slightest idea what i went through (we went through) and are going through. owl can find another plaything... so long.

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

Bye obi, see you next time around.

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

You know she is never going to respect your involvement obi. Add it to your diary. I wonder if this is partly being driven by their current schools attitude to her. Anyway, maybe worth writing to the current school and asking them to ensure they appraise the new school of your sons current issues so that they can continue monitoring it. Remember, despite all her efforts, your boys want to live with you not her.

BFS

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:35

Here we ago again.....same shit different day. I know I\'ve been off the board for a bit, but fuck all really changes with you. Obi, you goaded Owl from the beginning of the thread, then cry the victim. You\'re a childish knob sometimes. Dry your eyes and get on with it.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

go fuck yourself bfs- you\'re like a fucking seagull... fly in- shit on -fly off... opps... more of my real violent self... owl is right after all... you\'re right though about same shit etc... owl takes a polarised position to everything that i say,,, and you just have a go because i upset you and your \'friend\'... where is your brilliant thought process at work here... you are an idiot.

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Resorting to swearing and name calling isnt helping people. Disagree with reasoned argument please. Or even unreasoned for that matter lol.

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Actually Obi I do think you a bit of a nutcase in this instance. I think on this issue you are acting completely OTT and being a nutcase. I think you need to get some perspective. Your son lost a toy, which has now been found. He was upset as are most children when they lose their toys. Its nothing that unusual and something most parents manage to deal with easily. You even had your parenting strategy, \"i think if i had been in that situation i would have told him off or even given him a consquence to deal with but -\" I am not sure why you would have told him off, I\'ve never told my kids off when they lose something, nor have I had to give them a consequence. Thats because there is a natural consequence that flows from that, they have lost aprecious possession, no need for a telling off and another consequence, the natural consequence is enough. Its all quite everyday and straightforward. But no it gets turned into a first class dramatic incident, with insults, bad language, and abuse flying in all directions. Then we get the playing the victim stance and I\'m off then and its all your fault (for about the umpteenth time). Ever heard of the drama cycle Obi, because you keep re-inacting it for some reason. Anyway you are off now, so I wish you all the best until next time.

Martin

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:40:14

I have, at times, fancied my hand as a playwrite. The lights dim, an eerie mist wafts across the floor, and Obi retreats to the right, with just one quick cursory glance over his shoulder. The silence is deafening for a while... eventually some chatter amongst ordinary folk going about their business is audible. And then, suddenly, and totally by surprise, there is a big clap of thunder... lightning fills the whole arena... and entering the stage from the left is.... SABRI! And Owl is happy again lol, and everyone did, in the end, live happily ever after...

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Lol Martin, perhaps you could give up the day job! I hope everyone does live happily ever. I intend to. I like happy endings. I\'d forgotten about Sabri but now you mention it I wonder what happened to him, I hope he got to take his kids for a summer holiday back to his home country. I also hope his abscence from the boards means things have settled down on the child contact front and its all smooth sailing.

Teadrinker

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:18

I agree with Owl. Obi, you are being completely OTT. You describe yourself as \"in despair\" and your ex \"commiting acts of cruelty\" over her letting him leave a toy behind in a public place. Whether we agree with what she did or not, it\'s hardly an act of cruelty and you are getting upset over him losing a toy.

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

What (amongst other things) surprises me about obi is that I thought all this 24 dan high karate twee kondo malarkey was supposed to make a person more centred, calm and self disciplined? Plus (in theory) police training which surely must include how not to lose your rag at the drop of a hat? Doesn\'t make sense to me.

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

You cant blame a parent being incensed by the other parent deliberately causing their child distress. Some may call it a valuable lesson to be learned by the child, others may call it child abuse.

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

I think there are two separate issues here: yes, clearly some parents do use the children of a relationship to get at the other adult - destroy clothes the other parent has bought, toys and so on. Not good to say the least, but not a lot you can do other than avoid the trigger points - keep clothes and other possessions out of the arena, for the sake of the child. The other more general issue is that it is fundamental to good parenting to allow children to learn from their mistakes imo - so, set the ground rules as appropriate to age and understanding, give lots of opportunities to succeed in keeping the rules and a number of reminders, and then apply consequences if the rules are flouted (though as Owl pointed out some children are experential learners so you have to go to step 3 a bit quicker with those). If toys get trashed when with the other parent it may be because that parent struggles to set and keep to rules, not necessarily because things are being destroyed deliberately - all the toys may be being destroyed, not just those gifted by the other parent - so that\'s worth checking. If that\'s the case, then all the more reason for at least one parent to give the child the life skills to take care of their stuff as above.

BFS

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:35

Oh, the seagull line again. I\'m hurt. Is it any wonder you think Owl takes a polarised position to everything you say when you come on and mention her several times in a thread before she even responds? She has a different POV fro my yours. It\'s not uncommon. In fact, with you Obi, it\'s not just Owl. I\'m not having a go because you upset my \"friend\". Owl is a name on the net. She\'s not my \"friend\" as such. In fact, she\'s a very different type of person to me, I think I can identify many of my own weaknesses within her strengths. I have used these to my advantage where and when I recognise them over the last 5 years or so. It\'s helped me greatly. I\'m sorry it doesn\'t work for you. Occasionally, she has berated me for being a selfish prick (my words, not hers), but I don\'t think either of us has really held the grudge. I don\'t have a brilliant thought process. I\'m prone to over reactions as well. Less so these days mind you. I\'m not sure you\'ve realy accepted the fact that most people on this thread agree. It\'s not just Owl. Take the blinkers off.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

first- appols to those who i offended ... noidea- the toy dont get trashed by my sons- she breaks them/throws them away or leaves them somewhere... to all those who think its OTT... consider this... is a gentle push worthy of a punch? is a look worthy of a slap? in the context of that sentance- no... but what if that push was after YEARS of abuse? that look after YEARS of violence? the toy is not the issue here... its her behaviour... her bad behaviour... i checked out with a few friends at work (some dont know the full story about me /her) all saif if they were in the carpark they would have gone back to get the toy.. why wouldnt you? most seemed puzzled at why someone wouldnt... if they were at the end of a 30-mile journey - ok.. i can see that- but bot a phone call to the centre? why? its not becuase its a toy that gran bought is it? it seems that the above who think its \'positive parentling\' to be deliberately cruel to a child when its in your power not to be- are in the minority. and for that i am grateful... anyway- I think i have had all of the advise i can stand off owl and co for a while so i will retire for a few months.., although i think it may be for good this time... as getting angry with people that clearly have no idea what you feel of have gone through/going through is not really very helpful..

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

I was making a general point obi about why toys sometimes get trashed. It\'s easy to make assumptions about the other person - sometimes there are other explanations. If you can\'t handle put minor incidents into perspective, lose your temper at the drop of a hat and project your feelings about your ex onto Owl by seeing her as an abuser, then you\'re still locked into the cycle of abuse. Other people here have been in abusive relationships - do you seriously think you are the only one, or yours is the worst ever? - and have come out the other side. You could move on too if you wanted to.

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi it would be nice if you could get to a space where you didn\'t get angry at people who offer you positive advice. But I too suspect you are still locked in the cycle of abuse. As I see that you don\'t cause me any offence with your angry outbursts. I wish you all the best for your future and I hope you can move on from your present emotional state. I know a lot of people who have moved on from abusive relationships, it starts with them addressing their issues Obi. I hope you can address yours.

Teadrinker

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:18

I think this particular incident wasn\'t worth getting upset over. It\'s not deliberately cruel for a child to learn that sometimes if they don\'t look after their toys, they lose them. You\'ve got it all out of perspective.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

I could move on- if i was allowed to... but i am still dealing with a woman intent on not only cutting me out of the childrens lives- but destroying me. i had a call from my sons teacher today... they were expecting him at school... it turns out that she had got him into a RC school and not told anyone! then she just took him to the new school...lol... his old teacher asked me \'why has she done this?\' me reply... \'well in all fairness, she may be trying to give him a head start to get into the RC secondary school... also, i warned you when we first met - dont upset her or she will punish you...\' teach- \'how is removing your son punishment? and how did we upset her?\' me- \'i agree its not- but she is not a rational person... you upset her by offering her parenting classes...\' so - here we are- boys now in different schools... but hey- she is ok... quite normal... dont you think? lol take care all...

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

obi, to be fair its not her disallowing you to move on (I hate that term) as such, its you not being in a position to move yourself on. I know it must be incredibly difficult for you to have to watch all this going on and be powerless to do anything worthwhile about it, and I dont blame you one little bit for your anger towards her and what she is doing. I find it perfectly understandable and dare I say \'normal\'. Try to hold it all together though pal, I think you have come far, I think you are learing to detach yourself, you may have a way to go but you are heading in the right direction. Most people here wont understand what you have faced in the past, and what you face now on a daily basis, because they have never personally encountered it.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

how can I unless i stop seeing the kids - and just write it all off...? of course- thats what she wants... i will keep seeing the boys- unless it becomes a problem for them... anyway...

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

\"obi, to be fair its not her disallowing you to move on (I hate that term) as such, its you not being in a position to move yourself on.\" Very well expressed Ray. Obi I know many people who have and continue to encounter what you have. And they have got themselves to a position to move themselves on in spite of it. It may help you to meet some of those \"DV survivors\" and then you may be able to see how to move away from being a \"DV victim\". They have done that by looking inside themselves at what still provokes the reactions and feelings they have. I\'m not sure why you are so upset with the school thing when you have texted her telling her you fully support her decision. I think if the school had of upset her she would have removed both boys from the school. And in my experience upset parents who are out for revenge let the school know about their issues. Its more likely she has made this decision as she thinks it best for your son in the long term. I know it grates that you have not been fully consulted but try and see past that to what is best long term for your son.

Bookmartpa

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:28:16

Obi, the only point I was making on the Auschwitz thing was about putting things in perspective. I think it would be healthy for an 8 and 10 year old to learn that the loss of a toy is very, very insignificant considering some of the problems some people in the world have. I know, when my kids were that age I\'d often say \"so what, get over it\"...oddly enough they did. When my 16 year old was having a hissy fit last week about XBox live being down, I handed him the aforementioned book and suggested he read it. He has done (he\'s interested in history) and proclaims that it\'s the most shocking and upsetting book he\'s ever read, more-so as it is true. Perspective, that\'s all. 8 and 10 year olds are capable of learning about perspective just as we all are. All IMHO Sadly my forefathers (though I am adopted I should add...so the forefathers I have adopted !) also visited Auschwitz in Poland......

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

i dont agree book... I will teach them about the murder of millions of thier countrymen by nutcases when they are a bit older- i would kind of like them to have a childhood- they still believe in santa- so genocide is not really a topic of conversation for an 8-year old. in case i didnt hint hard enough- he is what happened in plain print- SHE LEFT THE TOY THERE ON PURPOSE- SHE REFUSED TO GET IT WHEN SHE COULD HAVE DONE EASILY... if he had dropped and broken it i would have helped him fix it... this was deliberate- like all of the other toys broken by her and lost by her. she doesnt allow toys she has bought to come to my home- why i dont know - i would never do anything like that... owl- read my post- i didnt say i was upset. I was as surprised as the schools ... i posted it to show AGAIN that i am not dealing with a rational person... moving a child in the middle of term is unusual - the teacher was at a loss to explain it... she dont care if they have issues with it... she only does what her priest says... mmmm... thinking about it... perhaps i have been trying to speak to the wrong people... i will make an appointment with her priest instead - perhaps he can talk some sense into her... she cant remove older son- yet... he has a statement and there is a lot more prep to do - she has told them she will though... before the end of the year...

Martin

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:40:14

\"perhaps i have been trying to speak to the wrong people... i will make an appointment with her priest instead - perhaps he can talk some sense into her...\" Obi, No No No! *I* can see that this is just wishful thinking from you, but others will take you seriously on it. Not that *that* matters. The point is to remove yourself from the place where such a thought even occurs... total indifference to her madness. You can\'t change it, wishing silently to yourself that you could is fine from time to time, but actually devising a plan where someone else \'talk\'s some sense into her\' isn\'t going to happen.

BFS

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:35

Obi I don\'t want to come across as a smug know it all, cos I\'m far from it but here\'s a big difference between us, and it strikes me because you get so wound up and I don\'t (any more). It was SS\'s birthday in July. I sent over a kiddy digital camera, the shock proof type that are generally crap in quality, aimed at kids and actually relatively expensive. As I understand it, it\'s still in the box in the cupboard. Last years Xmas present was mentioned in the nursery newsletter as a donation in January, many thanks to Short Stuff\'s mum etc. You see the pattern.... I\'m not wound up and I\'m not biting. If I\'m not biting, she\'s packing up her rod. Do it long enough and she might just stop fishing altogether. How she gets rid of the toys is irrelevant, gives them away, loses them....whatever? I am not responsible for what she does. If she finds it acceptable to parent the way she does, then so be it. You don\'t have to like it, and to be frank, you have over reacted on this occasion. I honestly believe I\'m a better parent that she is, not that she is bad in all respects. But what does make her behave worse, is ME giving her cause to fight in the first place. If I don\'t do that, then she behaves better (not from my POV but from Short Stuff\'s) If she is behaving better, then it\'s a better example for Short Stuff, and she is what\'s important. I know I am contributing to that, despite what the ex may think and I take personal satisfaction from it. Removing the conflict is working for me. It\'s not easy, I have a personality that kind of likes conflict, that\'s why I found it hard to break the cycle in the first place. I\'ve had to stay quiet when I don\'t want to, but I\'m done banging my head on the wall. Me being right doesn\'t make Short Stuff\'s life any better. Me being quiet does. It\'s bloody hard sometimes. I know you think we can\'t grasp your ex, but I was in a pretty fucked up relationship myself. My ex pulled a knife on me more than once. I\'ve been on the end of the odd right good battering. We have been through some truly hateful times, and yet I am still optimistic about the future, because I am learning what is achievable. Both my ex and I have behaved in ways similar ot your ex before now, and I can sympathise/empathise with what you are up against. I don\'t know it all, and it might all go pear shaped tomorrow, but it will only be a few steps back if it does, and then more forward. It takes a long time to make improvements, and a short time to ruin them. One thing is for certain, you need to change something, because the cycle hasn\'t changed much in your case. If it\'s harming anyone, it\'s your boys and you and you are part of the problem, like it or not. I doubt she gives a shit, so what can you do to make things better for those lads? Keep blaming her? You\'ll be here until they are adults. Find a way to make her stop fighting you and things can slowly get better, albeit in bite size chunks, and no you don\'t have to concede access. You perhaps have to concede 50/50 is never going to happen, and tbh I would question if it would do more harm than good in your case. Much like I said to CO in the other thread, I think you have to accept that you play a supporting role to mum. I don\'t think any of us likes it, but it makes a hell of a difference when it works.

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi my mum is the most rational person I know and I remember she removed my younger siblings from their state school to the catholic one on the middle of the term. Its not an irrational thing to do. it sounds like it has been a planned move. The teacher may be at a loss to explain it, but thats her issue. As I understand it your ex is a working teacher herself so will have a grasp of some of the educational issues. I suppose the question you need to ask yourself is whats best for the boys long term educationally. Does this mean they get into a better secondary school. What does the new school offer etc? Good post BFS. And Martin makes a good point Obi about you needing to change your stance in thinking someone is going to make her change. I wouldn\'t bother making an appointment with her priest. You obviously have little knowledge of the role of priests in the modern Catholic church.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

then i am boned. she wins. i may as well shoot myself now and save years of pain... the boys will get over it. who will care... nahh... not really... i didnt escape to die in peace- i will neve give up. Owl- plans can be irrational. she hasnt moved them to help the boys- she has moved them to spite the school because they were on to her- the parenting class were the thing that catalysed the actions... re the school- how should i know? i only found out they were going two days ago- and despite email and two telephone calls- they dont seem as if they are falling over themselves to meet me. dont surprise me- she is a catholic- they are catholics - i am an athiest... i disagree with the 50/50 thing... i wont give up fighting for the kids rights to see me more... anyway- bfs post was good- i agree... much more supportive than his first...

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

Obi, if you think BFS\'s post was good - leaving aside the 50/50 thing - which bits do you agree with? Does his main message about breaking the cycle make sense to you?

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Obi, she is never going to change no matter what you do or say, whether she is able to change we dont know. Maybe you are unable to change also in which case this cycle will probably continue for several years yet. We here are trying to tell you that you need to if you can, that will help you and your boys. If you cant do it yourself or with the assistance of your family and friends, then I would urge you to seek professional guideance. I know I have done so several times before. Even if it doesnt work for you, and it doesnt for everyone, you will at least have tried. Hopefully you can appreciate that proof of your love for your sons doesnt need to be manifested to the world at large by anger at their treatment by their mother, and just because you dont get angry doesnt mean you dont care. Very little in the world is achieved by anger. You need to be the voice of reason for them obi, the constant that they can always turn to. They will benefit from a father more at peace with himself. Please try.

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Good post Ray, very well expressed again.

Bookmartpa

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:28:16

Obi, you\'re not reading what I\'m saying....I don\'t suggest sitting down and trying to explain the holocaust to an 8 year old...and perhaps my original flippant remark was probably unwise. My only point which I will argue whether right or wrong, is that it does any child, of any reasonable age, no harm whatsoever to get things into context and only we as parents can educate them on what\'s important in life and what isn\'t. How do you know she did it on purpose? Do you have proof of that or have you made, possibly a reasonable, possibly not, assumption of this. Maybe the woman genuinely forgot ?

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

book- i guess you dont read too well either... i said she was in the CAR PARK when he told her that he had left it there... some two mins walk from the car... she DECIDED to leave it... re bfs\' SECOND post... i see what he is saying and i know that my personaility is very much the problem here... i know that i react badly to her behaviour- she never sees that reaction but probably knows me well enough to know that it happens... i know that its down to me... i try to resist but i have a vulnerable point- my sons... she knows the depth of my feelings- and that they will never change... this makes me easy to exploit... if i shield myself from that- it makes me a much harder person- and i dont like that... i would rather be expoited by her than seen as distant or uncaring by my sons... so i guess its just somethime i have to bare... my mistake is baring it here... its not a good place.

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

\"if i shield myself from that- it makes me a much harder person- and i dont like that... i would rather be expoited by her than seen as distant or uncaring by my sons... \" You know you I guess obi, but I\'m certain that the world at large, or indeed more importantly your sons, will not think any less of you if manage to achieve a emotional and psycological perspective where your ex can no longer hurt you.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

there is no such place - ray... whilst the boys are still here... thats the thing that cant be avoided... the only way to COMPLETELY disengage from her is to stop seeing the boys- shut down the area that is being used to exploit me... i wont do that...

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

Obi, if you are saying that she does things to your sons in order to get at you, like the toy incident, then the way to reduce that kind of activity is to not react. BFS put it really well: \'I\'m not wound up and I\'m not biting. If I\'m not biting, she\'s packing up her rod. Do it long enough and she might just stop fishing altogether.\' So, she may stop doing things to your sons specifically to wind you up - which is good for them - they get a more chilled out dad - which is good for them - they\'re not caught between two parents in high conflict - which is really, really good for them. Carrying on like this is very bad for them, and one parent has to take that into account - if she won\'t, then it\'s down to you.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

she will never stop... this wont stop until one of us dies... she has kept her war of hate with her dad going for 25-years... she wont rest until i am \'on the street -no money -no job- no family broken\' her words... she tried with work remember? writing to the chief constable... now its the family thing... she wont stop... ever... it dont matter if i bite or not.. she wont stop... i dont bite to her now... she hasnt let up for 4-years... biting is irrelevant... resistance is futile...

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Right then Obi, so get on with your life, stop tearing yourself to pieces over this and live! Going on like you are is very bad for your children. Don\'t do this to them. Don\'t do it to yourself either. As a matter of interest Obi, is her dad on the street, broke, without family and friends? And if he is did she cause it? You credit her with too much power.

BFS

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:35

I\'m a bit puzzled as to how you can make any proper progress that benefits your boys with that attitude Obi. All people change. She may not morph into the person you want her to, but she\'ll change. One day her boys will leave home. It\'s coming. She can\'t keep this fight going forever. I kept hating my dad for the best part of 25 years. It bears no reflection on how I interact with other people. She can hate him for another 25, it really is of no consequence to you, despite how often you cite it to reinforce your stance. If she won\'t rest until you are destitute, then I\'d adopt the attitude that she\'s going to be a very wound up person forever. Good luck to her. If she is this way (and I don\'t doubt she is), then I\'d suggest it would put you in a position of strength, if only you could see it. I\'ve been there, I recall the efforts she made to ruin my life, buy ultimately, she couldn\'t and can\'t. Perhaps yours will take longer to realise this than mine did, either way there is only so many things she can try, and soon enough she will run out of options. If you leave her on her merry quest, she is the only one who will look foolish. Your ex only influences your life this way because you insist on fighting an unwinable fight. I understand that people may not agree with my views on 50/50, and an open to debate that if necessary. I also accept I am in the minority (I think) on here by not having that as my ideal scenario post separation. Let\'s face facts though, you getting 50/50 is just about as realistic as you and Owl having kinky sex in public. It isn\'t a viable target, and forms part of your deep rooted stance. So, back to perspective. If you\'re not going to achieve 50/50, what can you do? Your kids will be teenagers before you know it. Young adults soon enough. By the time you\'re done with this futile fighting, more unnecessary damage will be done. Can\'t you concentrate on using the limited time you do have with them to good effect? Or better effect even? She will not allow you the fathering role you want. Accept it. Make the best of what you can. None of it is for her good. It\'s all about the boys. They will no doubt rebel against her as they grow, and it sounds as though she is making a rod for her own back in that respect. I\'d turn it on it\'s head and let her know how flattered I am that she envies my life so much she is all consumed with ruining it. Then again, my smart arsed comments weren\'t really that helpful, and are best kept private.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

why should i accept it? injustice continues without challenge... however, as i keep saying - i dont tell the boys- i dont really tell anyone except this board how i feel... so they have no real idea how i think0 i am always supportive of her and her mad thinking... partly because its the right think to do and also because she interogates them,,, owl- well, she has isolated him from his family, stopped him selling his house (clever legal ploy- not allowing him to remove her from the deed) so now he is stuck living where he dont want to until her dies or spends 000\'s in legal challenges... her bro moved to canada to get away from her- he is back now at home- however, her sister in law wont have her in the house ... long story but she hates her so much she spits when her name is mentioned- ;lol you think i dont like her... yes- she may well be choosing a boomerang as a weapon - the kids- but its going to be years before they get to moving out status... i dont fight her... i have NEVER taken her to court for the breaches she has done... she wants that- so i dont... as to owl and public nookie... i guess its going to be your place ... mine is a bit full...

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi if she is on the deed it is not solely his house to sell is it? Its hers too. Her father can choose to move closer to family if he chooses, no one forces him to live where he does. We all make our choices, its just some people don\'t want to take responsibility for theirs, they choose to blame others. But its good to hear your father-in-law is not on the street, broke and without family and friends. One thing you have to learn and accept Obi is that you don\'t have the power to control someone else by forcing change on them or trying to make others change them. You need to accept who she is as you can\'t change that. She may hate and despise you and you make think that unjust and unjustified but people are allowed to hate and despise others. It seems to me you hate and despise her as you have said so many times. Its OK that you do just as its OK that her sister-in-law hates and despises her. In the same way she can hate and despise you, there isn\'t anything you can do aout that. Why waste your time worrying about it ? If you can deal with your own inner power and control issues and acknowledge your need and desire to exert power over her and try to control her by \"making her be what you want her to be\", not accepting her as she is you may be able to come to terms with your situation and understand why you are part of the problem.

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Owl, you really arent helping matters by constantly justifying obi\'s ex\'s conduct. He knows her best, and if he says she is doing something to deliberately inconvenience and upset someone the chances are that is true. The woman is a nasty piece of work, which most people seem happy to accept.

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

I am not justifying her conduct just pointing out to Obi, that if someone is on the deeds and has an interest in a property, they are not simply going to remove their name from it without having their interest recognised and compensated. That doesn\'t make you automatically a nasty person if you don\'t immediately agree to what the other party wants. Also where parents and children are concerned their is history and children can and do feel aggrieved at how they perceive they have been treated by a parent. That can be valid. Obi of course will never see things that way as he doesn\'t want to.

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

BFS - on the 50/50 thing - I don\'t know if you\'re in a minority on the board, but you\'re not in the minority in real life, whether we\'re talking about parenting together or apart. And if we\'re talking about the child (as opposed to what the parent wants), the parent with less time can still be enormously influential - even the major influence on the child - for good or ill. My dad certainly wasn\'t a 50/50 parent in terms of time, but I know I still try and live my life by a couple of things he said to me as a child that took him seconds to communicate. Obi, taking it as read that your ex is the way she is, what can she do? Look at the status quo - she hasn\'t lost you your job, you see your children and she can\'t make them stop loving you, so she\'s on a hiding to nothing. Other posters are right - you are giving her power she doesn\'t really have. From your description she sounds like a sad, bitter and isolated person, not the ruler of the world, or even *your* world. I know you say that you wouldn\'t be in that position if you hadn\'t have fought back - but forget about that, the fight is over in real terms - in fact forget about her father, her brother, the cat she kicked in 2003 - they don\'t really matter. You don\'t like the way she parents, but there\'s nothing you can do about that so you have to be the counterbalance and ignore all the rest. Ok, you say that\'s what you do but I\'m afraid that just doesn\'t ring true - maybe you do intellectually, but not emotionally, and that\'s often where it counts most.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

owl- do some more research... poland was a communist contry the registration process for housing is VERY different to UK etc... if someone is reg to your house- sell at your peril... she could just go back and take her kids there at anytime- that means noone with a brain will buy your house- would you? knowing that at any minute- without warning- with full power of law people you dont know can just walk in to your home and live there... oh and read my post- she has isolated him from his family... noidea- its not over yet... we have got over the 4-attempts at work related disruption- i was investigated at one stage - but they found nothing of criminal interest - if i had i would be sacked. we are now waiting for the accusation of harm/cruelty to the children- or sexual assault- its the final card to play i suppose. i have stopped her moving to poland and never seeing the boys again- i woulnt have known about her plans to do that if it wasnt for a cafcass officer that alerted me. its a constant cold war... i mean look at the hols... she never tell me what days i am having until about a week before- so its VERY difficult to book anything- she wont release passports so i cant take them abroad without court action... if i dont answer my phone when she calls- she stops phone contact for the next week... its all designed by her to get me to respond- i dont... you all really have very little idea of what i have to deal with... now we are at apoint where she has used every sol in her town- to no effect... and has upset the members of her polish club- she is feeling isolated and alone... an animal is most dangerous when cornered... noidea- has hit the nail- if i hadnt have fought - hard- for them I would not see them at all- they would be in a different country with no knowledge of thier dad. the fight is not over... its now changed... its more like a cold war... owl- i would love to see the rosy world you paint- but its not true. even if a feeling is \'valid\' dont make it right... i am sure albert fish felt his feelings of murderous rage towards children were valid- but i cant help think he shouldnt have killed and eaten them... see?

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

\"we are now waiting for the accusation of harm/cruelty to the children- or sexual assault- its the final card to play i suppose.\" I think it would be very dangerous for her to do that, not that she isnt crazy enough to though. It would be discovered she falsely and maliciously accused you, and then her career as a teacher would probably be over. Remember, my ex no 1 now has a criminal record for accusing me. More and more employers undertake CRB checks these days as a matter of course. Besides, your sons are old enough to speak up for you too.

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

Obi, if she\'s got a history of malicious and unfounded accusations against you, if she\'s been through every solicitor in town, if she\'s pissed off virtually everyone in authority she\'s come across then she has very little left in her armoury has she? She really is not going to get very far with any additional accusations - for all you know she may have already tried it on and got precisely nowhere. As long as you spend time and emotional energy on worrying and wondering, she\'s got you where she wants you. Maddening though the phone contact/holiday stuff is, in the scheme of things it\'s small stuff. Because of personal circumstances I can\'t go away on holiday - I haven\'t been able to stay away for longer than a night for around 4 years - but that\'s just the way it is for the time being and there\'s no point wishing it otherwise.

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

I agree re the 50/50 thing no idea, I don\'t think those that think and know you don\'t have to spend 50% of the time with a child to be as influential as the other parent. I didn\'t like my Dad\'s behaviour most of the time and probably spent 5% of my childhood with him compared to 95% with my Mum even though I lived all my childhood in the same house as them both whilst they were still married. But he said two things to me which have had a profound influence on me. Overall I don\'t think he was the world\'s best parent but he was more influential than my Mum. Obi, as no idea says and I have said before you give your ex too much power. If you want to waste your emotional energy on getting yourself into a stae over all this then fine, but she wins every time you do that and you lose.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

i am not wasting anything... its not wasting energy to prepare yourself for the possibility that i could be - arrested, investigated, have my contact to the children removed, social services intervention, my partners job in school threatened... whilst i really appreciate your comments- i dont really think you know her like i do... and what she is capable of... its only a matter of time before this happens.. remember she has accused me of DV already... it didnt go anywhere- but the police were considering arresting me on susp... it was only the intervention of my chief supt that stopped that... my Police federation officer has already told me he has rep\'d a couple of officers accused of this very same thing... ray- as to her career- what would happen (if i was arrested and sacked) to her CM ? she dont think too hard about future consequences!!! as i say... the cold war continues- i hate it! but am POWERLESS to do anything about it... what has this 50-50 thing to do with anything...? I have never asked for that... i would love it sure... but courts are not interested in my wants... the court action i will start next year is only to remove issues in the order that make it easy for her to cause problems... thats all... residence is not an option at the moment... kids are too young... court wont change things without a reason. they would be better living with me- but since i am a dad i dont really have much of a chance of making that a reality... at the moment... when they are older maybe- when they choose to come... then the cold war will warm up considerably... :-(

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

You are a worrier Obi, aren\'t you. If this is where you want to place your emotional energy then go ahead. She really does have you right where you say she wants you though. If you want it to continue that way just go on acting as you do. Yes you are POWERLESS to do anything about her alleged behaviour, always have been and always will be. Thats a simple fact. Accept that and move on, it doesn\'t mean you have to BE POWERLESS. There is a world of difference.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

i cant see how you can move on from a dynamic issue... if someone dies etc you can move on... static points stay where they are and get further away as the time goes by... a dynamic threat continues- it follows you- it get no further away and you get no further away from it- no matter how much you try- it will follow you... this is a dynamic problem ...

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

Obi, come on, be a bit realistic about the abuse threat - she\'d probably phone the duty team, and she\'d have to make a reasonable case at that point for it to be investigated further by the CP team, they wouldn\'t find anything (if it got to that point), nfa.

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

No she doesnt noidea, all she has to do is call the NSPCC anonimously and the police will be at obi\'s door at 6am the following day in force. I had 5 offices turn up and one even accompanied me and watched me get dressed!!!!!

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

That was an allegation regarding a baby wasn\'t it ray? Different kettle of fish and she must have *really* laid it on thick for emergency action to take place as you describe - if it happened that way all the time, the police wouldn\'t have much time to do anything else. Most false allegations don\'t get past first base. In lots of jobs, including mine, any allegation does however result in automatic suspension. So if I piss somebody off, that\'s what could happen quite easily - but if I spent my life living as though it was going to happen (apart from taking the obvious precautions) then I\'d drive myself crazy. Anyway, I think obi\'s ex would have gone down that route already if she was going to..much easier when the kids are tiny and can\'t speak up.

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

My son was 27 months at the time.

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

27 months - basically non-verbal.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

noidea- dont forget what i do... i work in the Child abuse investigation unit.. i would be arrested - i would be interviewed and bailed pending enquiries- likely suspended... even if i was never charged- it is discloseable in court- i would never work in CP again. I would be lucky to keep my job. the accusation would be enough for her to stop me seeing the kids again and it would be a long time before i saw them again i think... how would she loose? she may be waiting to play this card as a last resort... as to the \'lay it on thick\' not really... i did a job last week from a crimestoppers -anon - we got a warrant -did his house had all the computers away - arrested him - social services intervention... need more convincing? she has done everything i have said she would do... and everything i said she wouldnt ... i carry on... but its really only a matter of time... everyone in my position has to face this ... we have primed everyone we can but it wont matter- they will always follow through with any investigation because - the children are more important...

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

\"everyone in my position has to face this\" That\'s true. I knew my ex would try that eventually to obstruct contact. Chapter 666 in the crazy mothers handbook I think lol. Must be a best seller by now!

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

You\'d be arrested? Doesn\'t there have to be grounds for arrest then? Are you saying that someone phoning crimestoppers and saying that mr x next door has naughty photos on his pc is sufficient grounds in itself for arrest? Blimey, this really is a police state.

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Yes noidea, you get arrested and cautioned for questioning. Chances are you also spend several hours in a police cell while they search your home and confiscate computers, digital cameras, phones etc. You get them back after several months! They also instruct a resident parent to withhold contact with the accused pending their enquiries. Job done!!!

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

So a phone call to crimestoppers provides reasonable grounds for arrest? How exactly? I think we should be told.

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

Oh, don\'t panic - from the crimestoppers website: \'The police have to thoroughly research the information you give us in order to act on it. This ensures that information is correct and not given to us maliciously in order to set someone up. The police cannot get a search warrant or make an arrest based solely on anonymous information – there needs to be other intelligence that supports Crimestoppers\' information. The research they do on Crimestoppers\' information means they can use it with confidence. Once the information has been researched, the police will allocate this to an appropriate officer or team to deal with. This could mean more research or action may be taken.\'

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

I suppose it depends on what the police consider \"thorough research\" no idea. Obi I would have thought given your boys ages that the police investigation would not just rely on your ex\'s accusation of sexual abuse. There would have to disclosure by the boys. Nowhopw likely do you think it is that your sons are going to sit there and say to some interviewer \" yeah dad did this this and this\". You need to trust both the relationship with your sons and the process you work in more and stop worrying.

BFS

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:35

Re 50/50. I was under the impression Obi, that you have stated on numerous occasions that you won\'t stop this fight until you have 50/50. Correct me if I\'m wrong. Either way, I agree with what the others have said wrt to 50/50 parenting post separation, though I have plenty of respect for those who can make it work. There are folk I feel who think more time is the cure to everything, and you often strike me as one of these people. Obi, as it\'s never over, or going to be over, what do you stand to gain by constantly worrying over it? What possible advantage does it have for you? Surely if she keeps plotting, and nothing is ever found, it further builds your case that she is a head case? If she doesn\'t tell you about dates until 4 days before, don\'t book anything. Either adopt a way to change things (you can\'t because your glass is always half empty), or live with it. I used to do this. If nothing was forthcoming about holidays, I\'d book one that suited me and tell her when I was not available for contact. If she didn\'t like it, well she could always be more co-operative. Same for phone calls, you allow yourself to be treated this way. It\'s your doing because you bow to her position of power. Not that I\'d advocate it, but have you threatened her with loss of CM? You are wasting energy, because all you are doing is stressing. You can\'t prepare for what she may report. You\'re no different to most blokes. We\'d all face suspension from our jobs over allegations as sick as you suggest. Ok, our chosen vocations are different, but thee effects are largely similar, and if you think you are the first man ever to face the threat, think on. Personally, I\'d dare her to make an accusation, because once it\'s done there\'s nothing left in her arsenal. I\'m bloody minded that way though! Seriously though, are you going to live in fear of her allegations forever?

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

for any offence i can arrest without warrant ANYONE i reasonably suspect has committed that offence. re research- its not possible to research that offence WITHOUT the search and confiscation of equipment to DO the research... as to we cant get a warrant- what a load of crap.. for searches for drugs and stolen gear etc... maybe... but not child protection - no court would say no \'cos if a kids got abused and it was revealled that we knew and didnt get the computers etc... we would be toast... also- naughty pictures- nahh... indecent images of children- yup... warrant time... \'there has to be disclosure from the boys\'- oh really... SHE could do it! \'hello cops? - yeah mum here... my ex hubby has touched up my kids- yeah... eh? oh they told me... sure i will do a statement...\' what ? the kids didnt say anything on video interview? well... they told me ...\' see... soooo easy... in the meantime i am arrested interviewed- major life disruption... also- they would be in my house having my computers away too... like offence see- we have the lot... stopping CM... lol... and end up in court...? be locked up for contempt? hello!!! earth calling... i am not stressing here... its just a fact men in my position (and my partner) have to be aware of and be mindful of... because if it happens - its a life changing event... and not for the better. i mean- gee... i wonder how my partner would feel? about that and her being interviewed- and about her kids being interviewed- and her son being given keep safe work? mmm... as i say... i dont think about it every second... but the fact is - its there... i wonder how you doubters will react if it happens... lol i would love to see that...

BFS

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:35

I\'ve faced it Obi. You think your life is worth more than mine because you\'re a policeman? Or detective? Bollocks mate! I got sick of my own mother being so worried my ex would make false claims about me. My mother kept telling me I shouldn\'t take SS swimming alone, make sure I had other adults round to vouch for me all the time etc. Like hell I was! I, like the rest of the population am innocent until someone proves otherwise. I am all to well aware that mud sticks on some issues. I\'ve been accused of being a wife beater, and of raping her. None of which she was able to follow up on, so it was social mutterings I had to deal with. It\'s not the end of the world. So they can take arrest you? Check your computers? Your partner must know this is a possibility. If anyone should have faith in you, I\'d imagine it would be her, no? You paint a terribly one sided argument for which you present no balance at all. We live in the real world too. It\'s not the unbalanced see-saw you portray. There are ways and means to play the game with CM without arrest Obi. In the same way an obstructive PWC can play with court, so can an NRP. You constantly sound like you\'ll be jailed for not observing the green cross code, just cos you\'re a bloody plod. It\'s irrelevant anyway, cos I don\'t think it\'d do you any good. The fact is, is is there. So why let it impact on anything you do? It\'s not going away

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

\"The fact is, is is there. So why let it impact on anything you do? It\'s not going away\' Exactly BFS, all of us face potential allegations but thats not a reason to go around worrying about it all the time Obi, or even part of the time. You just have to get on with life. In the unlikely event it happens deal with it then. But in the meantime stop being so paranoid. it does you no good.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

lol- you lot make me laugh... i didnt mention anything to do with my job- you did that bfs- got a problem...? lol nooooo some of my best mates are coppers etc... as Romeo said to Benvolio- \'stop, for i have heard it all before...\' i dont remember writing anything about my\'special\' position as to arrest- you did that- why? and for your information and education- because of my job- i have slightly less rights than you- i dont have a right to silence for example... anyway-i dont sit at home hiding in the closet... why let it impact... lol... perhaps i should take up yoga and wear a kaftan... mmm.... peace man... why would i play the CM game? i dont want my kids to suffer- i care if they suffer... unlikely event? i have had police in my house twice... and at my sisters house and at my old house- anyway...

BFS

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:35

lol- you lot make me laugh... I\'m glad. Chuckle away. i didnt mention anything to do with my job- you did that bfs- got a problem...? lol nooooo some of my best mates are coppers etc... as Romeo said to Benvolio- \'stop, for i have heard it all before...\' Don\'t be so defensive Obi. I don\'t think you are a plonker because you are a policeman. I think you are a plonker because you are a doormat. I honestly sympathise with your predicament, but it is not insurmountable. No problems here. i dont remember writing anything about my\'special\' position as to arrest- you did that- why? It\'s a general woe is me thing you bring to the board. I can\'t...I can\'t....I can\'t because I\'m a plod. and for your information and education- because of my job- i have slightly less rights than you- i dont have a right to silence for example... Thank you, I feel well informed now. But, I imagine that so few people actually exercise the right to silence, you\'re not losing much against the rest of us here. It\'s all just noise so you can hide behind the excuses with your glass half empty. Guilty people would be best served by being silent I think, no? What does speaking up cost you if/when it happens? anyway-i dont sit at home hiding in the closet... More little drama statements for effect? Tell us what you do, not what you don\'t.... why let it impact... lol... Got an answer to the question, or just a sarcastic lol? perhaps i should take up yoga and wear a kaftan... mmm.... peace man... Yeah, cos that\'s what I did. You do make informed judgements about people in your job, don\'t you? Been on any training lately? why would i play the CM game? i dont want my kids to suffer- i care if they suffer... I pointed out that I don\'t think this is a good idea for you. I have explained before though how I would, or have done as the case may be, play a little hard ball to even the playing field occasionally. You can\'t, or rather won\'t because you can\'t see the woods for the trees me thinks. unlikely event? i have had police in my house twice... and at my sisters house and at my old house- anyway... And yet you still see your boys, amazing! They don\'t live abroad. Your boys love you. I take it your sisters house did not burn down as a result of this revelation? You are still gainfully employed. So, it\'s a likely event then? What difference does that make? Enlighten us.

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

BFS, you should perhaps appreciate that there are employments when even the simple accusation of being a paedophile can seriously affect that employment, even if the police investigation finds no evidence. You should also remember that accusations now remain on \'file\' for ever. We live in a culture of \'no smoke without file\'. Obi has stated how easy it would be for his ex. My ex ended up with a criminal record because she made the accusations so specific that when no evidence was found it was obvious what her purpose was. Most people that make these false and malicious accusations get away with it scott free, which really pisses me off because they waste the valuable time of the police in protecting children that genuinely desperately need it.

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

I\'m really struggling with this one about anonymous tip offs. According to what Obi is saying, I could ring Crimestoppers and say Mr X (some neighbour who I\'ve had an argument with for example) has been watching child porn - I saw it through his window - and the police will be around to search and arrest him etc as a direct result of my call? With no other evidence or intelligence to back up my claim? No risk to me, because Crimestoppers maintain anonymity of callers? And the Crimestoppers organisation are completely misinforming the public?

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Why do you think it doesnt work that way? The NSPCC also act on anonymous tip offs as does the benefit fraud people. The public generally dont want to get involved personally and who can blame them these days. From talking to the officer that investigated me, I think the official view is even if only 1 in 10 accusations are legitimate then at least 1 paedophile has been stopped so its worth all the effort.

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

The difference with the NSPCC is that there\'s an assessment first unless a child is deemed to be at immediate risk of harm and you get an Emergency Order (pretty rare). A call to a social services duty team leads to an assessment of risk, not necessarily police involvement from the outset. What obi appears to be saying is that a call to Crimestoppers resulted in arrest/search without any checking of whether the guy was known, there was corroborating intelligence, his kids were on the CP register etc etc - it was just straight in there on the strength of one call. I think that\'s worrying.

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

..unless of course the anoymous caller also provided evidence later in the process, which would make this scenario completely different.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

we DONT NEED evidence to arrest and investigate... I have a warrant (as do all officers) to arrest on REASONABLE susp... I dont need corroboration... its nice yes, but NOT required for arrest and investigate... and yes your nex door bloke would be arrested sharp if you put that on paper... think- what would you do if you were watching ind images of kids on your pc and you susp that the cops were coming around to look? mmm... throw the computer in the canal? yes... i would... so, the court realise this and give us powers to get in thier quick and keep the evidence... police dont get involved? oh yes they do mate.. i work in that dept... they get FULL disclosure the moment SS do... anyway... i think you are beginning to see what i was saying eh?

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

That is not my personal experience noidea, my son did not live with me so there was no immediate risk of harm yet the police turned up on my doorstep in force. They even very quickly ascertained that the accusations were false and malicious, but still went trough the motions of confiscating my property and advising the resident parent to withhold contact. I have read of and discussed with many other fathers that the same happened to. Have you any personal experience of this, or just statistics?

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

Oh, you work in a social services duty team do you Obi? Or do you get a transcript of every call? Corroboration is \'nice\' but not required - that speaks volumes. If I was the guy with the computer images, how would I know you were doing background checks? If one call to Crimestoppers as outlined above is grounds for \'reasonable suspicion\' then we really are living in a police state.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

interesting question- i will do some research when i go back to work... only be for my force though...

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

\"If one call to Crimestoppers as outlined above is grounds for \'reasonable suspicion\' then we really are living in a police state.\" It seems to me that it is the people who make these false and malicious accusations you should be complaining about (mothers mostly), not the police who react to them on the basis of child protection.

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

My interest is specifically as I\'ve stated - whether one*anonymous* call to Crimestoppers re alleged child pornography is sufficient to fulfil the \'reasonable suspicion\' requirement for arrest. I\'m really not interested in debating false allegations, \'child-abusing\' mothers etc with you ray, so stop fishing.

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Thats fine noide, I was just pointing out that you just seem to be directing your incredulity at the wrong people thats all.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

noidea- yes is the answer. for an explaination read the following... situation -one man walks up to me in the High Street... \'officer, that man there (points) stole my wallet\' me- \'ok... (to man pointed at) ok friend, under section 1 of PACE i intend to search you- i have a power to do so by force if required and a power to hold you here whilst i do it...\' man- ok officer - anything you say... situation -two man walks up to me in the High Street... \'officer, that man there (points) punched me in the face! me- \'ok... (to man pointed at) ok friend, you are under arrest on suspicion of section 39 assault (cautions offender)\' man- \'i didnt do anything officer!!!\' see? so if the above are ok for an arrest /search - why woulnt a specific allegation? the answer is- it is... dont forget in addition to the two citizen powers i have - i get two more... e.g. you see a man smash you car window- you can arrest- because you KNOW an offence has occurred and you KNOW he has done it... you see your broken car window and a man says - that man there did it...- you can arrest - because you KNOW and offence is committed- and you SUSPECT that man did it... you see a man break a car window (not yours) arrest? NO! you dont KNOW an offence has occurred! you KNOW its him but it might be his car!!! I CAN - because i can SUSPECT an offence has occurred! you see a broken window and the man tells you its that chap etc... arrest ? NO - \'cos you dont KNOW its an offence and you dont KNOW he did it... i can though... anyway... its easier than you think... good job most people are honest eh?

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

But none of these men walking up to you in the High Street are *anonymous* are they? That\'s the point I\'m trying to clarify.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

they usually are... not wishing to sound silly but i dont know everyone in the country...

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

Ok but there not anonymous in the same sense as a faceless caller to Crimestoppers are they? Where no calls are recorded? And presumably you would go on to take details from your man in the street at some point? At the risk of repeating myself ad nauseam, my question is purely related to the Crimestoppers scenario - is one *anonymous* call to Crimestoppers re alleged child pornography sufficient *on its own* to fulfil the \'reasonable suspicion\' requirement for arrest?

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

at the risk of repeating myself again- yes it is.. yes to recorded calls... yes to details taken... but ray is right- even if the charge/accu is dropped- its on your file... for ever... thanks to ian huntley...

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

So the Crimestoppers organisation is prepared to lie publicly about how they operate. And them with an ethical framework, ACPO protocols and guidelines and everything. How odd.

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Maybe its purpose is as a deterrent noidea.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

they are not lying... for the majority of crimes- it would be normal to have more intel before arresting etc... however, with child protection matters- its much more likely for the police to move quickly. no system is perfect- its just not possible... and no system can cater for every event. think- if information is received that someone has indecent images of children - how can the Police check your computer without entering your house, taking it and then examining it? if it turns out to be false- you get your computer back... but if you do have them- you get to have a day in court- social services crawling all over your family- the sack- a place on the sex offenders register-a community rehab order and me or my opposite numbers visiting you... having said that- i would try to do other enqs- check with bt if you have a line- but since you can have wireless net systems - thats not an indication in itself... so- we would need to have the computer...

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

\'they are not lying... for the majority of crimes- it would be normal to have more intel before arresting etc... \' Sorry, but according to you they are lying. They say \'The police cannot get a search warrant or make an arrest based solely on anonymous information\'. Nothing there about \'the majority of crimes\', or any other qualifying statement.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

dont be so polarised... if something is different or not covered by a statement- its not lying! my ex is like that- if i said something like \'i will be home at 8\' and due to traffic it was 8-30 i was \'lying\'... failing that... just say its me thats lying... or wrong... either way- the will to live slips from me...

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

..and me, if that\'s your idea of logic. \'I will be home at 8\' = statement of intention. I read \'cannot get a search warrant\' as a statement of fact, but then I\'m not in the police.

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Is obi now responsible for the statement made by Crimestoppers in some way? Complain to the BBC if you\'re unhappy. Gees .....

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

Where have I said he is? Oh.. I haven\'t. He\'s responsible for what *he* says. BBC? Crimestoppers is a national charity that gets a lot of Home Office funding, and works in direct partnership with the police. It would be reassuring to know that they don\'t tell direct lies about the way they work, so tbh I\'d prefer it if obi was mistaken or didn\'t have the full information about the arrest/search that he told us about.

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Then complain to the charity.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

also- noidea- i didnt say it was logic!!! it her that did that not me!!! READ!!! well i thought i was mistaken once... but i was wrong... lol... i am mad- laughing at my own joke... anyway... oh- yes... you arent in the Police- I am... I have DONE jobs based on ONE item of data- GOT warrant based on anon tips GOT computers based on ONE persons say so- GONE to court based on the same and GOT convictions... so- please read what i say.. its true.

Martin

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:40:14

One would hope that a *single* anonymous phone call to crimestoppers reporting someone for suspected downloading of child porn would *not* result in plod arriving mob handed without even checking if there was a phone line, or an ISP subscription, or similar background checks first. I\'m (obviously) only interested in the innocent party being set up scenario here. I\'m not even completely swayed by the idea of \'what *if* he *is* a perv though\' being enough to justify invasion of one\'s property if the ratio of \'plod is right\' is 1000 to one. Whilst plod would need the hard drive to be sure of kid porn storage (can be loaded up from external storage devices) I would hope that some background checks of where suspected perv works, what does he buy on credit cards, where does he go, known associates, etc etc comes first. I also understand that a \'ghost\' computer can be set up in line with host ISP and the subscriber so that web sites visited, what\'s d/l\'d, contact emails etc can be monitered. I DO get the idea that the police need to act fast, if they are investigating a kidnapping!... but for www kid porn, I would have thought that softly softly catchee lots of monkees would be a better bet. Still, police know best don\'t they ;-) I\'m disgusted that the police think that acting on one anonymous phone call to such an extent is justified. Still, if using a helicopter to tail a driver spotted sipping water at traffic lights/eating a kit kat/whatever is ok, nothing should surprise me really... \"if it turns out to be false- you get your computer back... \" Oh yeah? What if you have to finish off the quote on a 100k contract within 48hrs? Or lose the contract? How long before PC comes back (in original condition, nothing deleted) It\'s a completely OTT reaction to *one* anon phone call IMO.

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

It was 3 months before I got my computer back. I did get my mobile phone back in about 2 weeks I think, but I had to buy another sim card and new phone immediately as it was also my work number.

BFS

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:35

Martin. The voice of reason! I\'m hopeful, that there are just Obi\'s views. I guess plods are the same as the rest of us in that almost no one agrees in a single workplace how to go about their job.

Martin

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:40:14

I think what I\'m getting at RoS is that plod could turn up at 6am mob handed, smash your door down, to find out that you haven\'t even got a computer!

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

You dont need to be subscribed to an ISP or even access the internet to watch child pornography on a computer. People obtained it before the net remember! Also, wouldnt an ISP be restricted by the data protection act from providing that information? If not, is there a central database of which ISP\'s we are all subscribed to?

Martin

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:40:14

\"...wouldnt an ISP be restricted by the data protection act from providing that information?\" I don\'t believe so... I\'ll use the downloading of movies and games etc as the example. *Some* people that are using P2P to \'share\' stuff are being nicked... the info comes from \'somewhere\'. I don\'t \'know\' with any certainty, but i\'m pretty sure that GCHQ type places are able to moniter net traffic... perhaps to any extent they choose. There\'s obviously a lot of bigger fish out there and only so many man hours.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

data-protection is not a problem- i can serve forms to bypass that no probs... the voice of reason>??? martin would presumably like us to wait for a few weeks until kids are abused then we will have plenty of evidence? what is it with people like you? you scream at us we should be more like gene hunt- and yet when its seems even remotely like thats a possibility you run crying to mummy... child porn- as you call it- IS A VERY SERIOUS matter- certainly one of the most important things we deal with- what is more important than protecting children??? those pictures are CRIME SCENES!!!- without the demand... there wouldnt be a supply... responding to kidnap with speed is justifible but the abuse of children isnt? plod? you mean the Police that tackle child abuse? the people that use those pictures are VERY likely have a sexual interest in children - you dont think thats important- or that we need to get in there and sort it out? make sure thier kids are protected? IMHO your views on the Police are a disgrace... the people i work with are dedicated and highly professional- they have only one thing that drives them- they believe what they do makes a difference... to the kids they help... yes- occationally we get it wrong... humans make mistakes... i do... have/will... but i think you need to be a little bit more focused on the offenders- arent they the real baddies? not the police that are trying to protect us against them?

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

getting a warrant to sieze a computer is one thing- getting a surviellence authourity to evesdrop on a public dataline is something else... the collateral intrusion is huge and you would need some heavy duty evidence to do that... i have never seen it... also given the nature of the NET its not as easy as you think... read up on the RIPA act... its VERY complex... the info to arrest re these crimes comes from the same search system we use- its very simple- just get your sharing client and search for the naughties - when you find them - start a download and run your trace program- some clients even display the isp! then we get the isp and can find you with our intel/info sharing protocols we have with ALL data providers... then we get the warrant- then \'ding-dong\' ... dont like that? dont download indecent images of kids and i will leave you be..

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

Usual straw man argument/bluster/dramatics from you obi. Being concerned about the police acting solely on anonymous tip offs does not equate to approval of child pornography or child pornographers. Nobody would have a problem with the tracing leading to warrant process you describe. The issue is about invading somebody\'s life and property on the say so of one anonymous call. If you can\'t see any problem with that, and that\'s a general attitude in the police, then heaven help us.

Martin

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:40:14

Probably a predictable tirade from you Obi. If only you\'d read this bit properly first; \"I\'m (obviously) only interested in the innocent party being set up scenario here.\" then maybe... oh, forget it, I\'m wasting my time. To suggest \"dont download indecent images of kids and i will leave you be...\" sounds rather personal. I think \"Fuck off\" is in order. Trace that you brainwashed cunt.

BFS

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:35

Did someone touch a nerve Obi? I\'m not sure anyone is questioning the seriousness of the offences mentioned. Running to mummy? People like who exactly? There are lots of things equally as important as protecting children. Taken in context, I\'m a little worried by the fact that everything that remotely fits under the umbrella of paedophilia is considered in the same way by the media, and the police it seems. I\'m curious as to the validity of of statements like \"the people that use those pictures are VERY likely have a sexual interest in children\" Personally, I\'m of the opinion that the media has got everyone so bloody worked up thinking their kids are actually likely to experience some form of abuse. I mean, we look at some pretty sick stuff out here (not child related, but sick by most peoples standards), but at work, we\'re a rather perverse and sick bunch of people if you look at that aspect of us in isolation. In reality, none of us want to shag midgets or have grannies pee on us. I don\'t mean to make light of what is a serious problem, but the questions being posed above are valid IMO. Why are my views (I assume you were referring to me?) so disgraceful? How have you worked out what my view on the police are? I don\'t recall being overly explicit on that topic. Dedicated and highly professional? All of them? Really? I\'m in the wrong job. There was me thinking that roughly speaking, the attitudes of a spectrum of people in any particular team would be broadly similar. ie you have the nugget that turns up to get paid, the one who is motivated and professional, and then a group in the middle who form a natural curve of distribution? Or do the police have a secret motivational tool that actually works? I\'m very curious, and could see this debate never ending, but I fear for your sanity. I\'m happy with my focus. Actually, just read Martin\'s post. So much more to the point.

Martin

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:40:14

Apologies for my language bfs/guys. \"The issue is about invading somebody\'s life and property on the say so of one anonymous call.\" It appears reasoned debate, or rational concerns aren\'t for us mere mortals. It\'s just sickening to see/hear someone in a so called respected position seeing us mere mortals as little more than collatoral damage.

Martin

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:40:14

According to noidea, the crimestoppers site says: \"The police cannot get a search warrant or make an arrest based solely on anonymous information\". Obi says they can. Noidea says to obi, \'oh, crimestoppers are lying then, are they?\' Obi says, \"they are not lying...\" And the reasonable conclusion from that gentlemen, is we are all child porn supporters.

BFS

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:35

No apologies necessary on my account Martin. I\'m happy to discuss the issue. It\'s interesting to note that we\'ve gone off topic, and interesting and eye opening as it is, it\'s not really helping Obi deal with his ex. I\'m still not sure what difference all of this makes in how he relates to his kids or his ex. It seems the best case scenario and the worst case scenario are one in the same for Obi, and I still don\'t understand why it\'s an issue, especially given her history of false claims against him.

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

I can rather see where obi is comming from. Noidea keeps harping on about the welfare of a child comming first when discussing care arrangements for your own children, yet all of a sudden the welfare isnt as important as the rights of a adult if a potential paedophile tip off comes from an anonymous source. I agree with obi that someone who has child pornography on a compter is likely to be interested in the possibily of a more \'real life\' experience, if in fact they don\'t do it already, and I think its true to say that someone who does probably does so with their own children as they are easily accessible. We should perhaps remember that there arent many people out there nasty enough to report someone else for being a paedophile, and I would hope that the instances of false and malicious accusations are in the significant minority to genuine ones. From my personal perspective, having been a victim of the false and malicious accusation, I dont blame the police for initially reacting the way they did. I do think that they should have stopped their action immediately they discovered the report was false though. I do blame my ex, because the time she caused them to be spend on me could have resulted in the death of a child that would otherwise have been saved. Of course the sick and warped mind of my ex will probably never see that. She should have been prosecuted for peverting the course of justice, and not given the option of acceping a formal Police Caution. The police are between a rock and a hard place on these tip offs, as the responses on this thread indicate.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

thanks ray... i learned a long time ago that wonkers like martin cant be pleased by ANYTHING we do... he takes offence to my comments- i take offence to his... i will let history judge who is in the morally stronger position- the person trying to stop abuse or the person trying to stop the people stopping the abuse... because of thier rights... i think martin is confusing the issue- he thinks the cops are the evil what did you call me again- c***? becuase we act on a piece of intel... not the person who gave the intel? didnt even mention that- too focused on sticking the boot into me... collaterall damage? you really are a wonker arnt you ? me saying that something isnt a lie is accusing you of supporting child abuse- WTF??? I dont suppose you fancy having a crack ot the unified field thoery do you? Einstein couldnt get that to work - with your bizzarre logic i bet it it would ake you 30-mins... its not my \'attitude\' its the law- you hippy twonk... dont like it? be an mp and vote it out... bluster/dramatics ? lol... (light shines like Paul on the road to Damascus) oh your god!!! you are all SO right - i must immediately stop my job and be a postman! your rights! the removal or highlighting of a potential sex offender is not as important as someones rights! what about the rights of children not to be abused ?... as i say if you dont like it write to your mp... i guess from your indignation- you are beginning to see what i fear now? yes? and for that power to be in the hands of someone like my ex? yes?

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

No apologies necessary for me either Martin. I did rather drag the thread off topic - I think it came up because I was actually trying to inject some perspective into the malicious allegation scenario. Ray - \'the time she caused them to be spend on me could have resulted in the death of a child that would otherwise have been saved\' - applies to the time potentially wasted on responding to a false anonymous call that could be avoided by doing some checks. Can\'t be too pleasant for the guy\'s children to have the police come around and arrest their dad for being a paedophile on the flimsiest excuse either. But again, it\'s a straw man argument - being concerned about the rights of the individual doesn\'t mean that you\'re not concerned about the welfare of children or that in asking for a modicum of common sense to be applied you\'re in favour of putting children at risk. I don\'t have a particular problem with the police either - but obi is just downright scary sometimes.

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

Cross posted with obi. Like I said, scary.

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

\"From my personal perspective, having been a victim of the false and malicious accusation, I dont blame the police for initially reacting the way they did. I do think that they should have stopped their action immediately they discovered the report was false though. \" With a small child and an allegation the police won\'t suddenly have a discovery that an allegation is false unless of course the person making the allegation says its false and they made it up. Until then they have to keep doing thorough investigation which will grate like hell if you know you are innocent. Although as she now has a criminal record for making a false allegation I take it she fessed up to that. Having been involved in various agencies and educational institutions who have been involved both at the centre and on the periphery of abuse allegations my view is that the police strategy is not as gung ho as Obi suggests but far more circumspect. I know of cases where on being alerted by the child welfare authorities of suspected actual sexual abuse, there has been up to a 1 month wait before the suspect is even spoken to by the police.

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Yes they did Owl, please dont tell me I am wrong when I was there and experienced it.

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Ray I\'m not telling you you were wrong, I\'m just saying that the police won\'t \"discover an allegation is false\" where a small child is involved. They may come across evidence that conflicts with the background of the allegation, i.e when the alleged offence is said to have taken place adult and child were not together but as there is a small child they will and should have to continue their investigation. As I said it will grate if you are the accused and know you are innocent.

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

What part of \'yes they did\' do you not understand owl?

Tania

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:35

Obi, I do wonder whether your job in child protection is skewing your thinking at all. If you are surrounded by this sort of thing all day as your job surely it must rub off in how you think about your ex - you are still so negative about her and you appear to make her responsible for all your anxieties where the children are concerned. Could you transfer to another section with the police so there is a chance you can get a more balanced perspective. It might help.

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

I think its more what don\'t you understand about the law of evidence Ray. Off course if she confessed to making it all up, then thats different but that would be the only case where they \"discover\" the allegation is categorically false. The more correct terminology would be that based on the evidence the allegation of abuse is \"unlikely\" to have occurred. Innocent until proven guilty you see Ray, and the proof only happens in a court of law. Tania good point.

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Oh whatever ......

Stuart

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

Obi, I think that the scenarios you give above are a little off the point for several reasons. 1) The bloke reporting the theft of his wallet or the guy who has been punched in the face are reporting the offence as victims so can not be anonymous. 2) Any police officer who jumped in as fast as you have indicated is on a hiding to nothing and booking his place on the \"required to resign\" route home. When I was in the plod I would never have simply taken such action without doing at least the basics in investigation. Its what we learned at the training school and Im a little worried if things have changed so dramatically since then! You have mentioned several times your \"extra powers\" as a police officer. Yes, officers do have the right to arrest on a couple of occasions in addition to those a private citizen has. BUT, all powers of arrest have to be used with caution if accusations of false imprisonment / assault etc are to be avoided. The key to this is the term \"reasonable suspicion\" If information to crimestoppers can really be used without the most basic police investigations then we really are in trouble.

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

What *really* gets to me obi is your lack of logical thinking. I could go through your last posting point by point to evidence that statement, but maybe I\'ll just call Crimestoppers and get you arrested for crimes against joined up thinking.. Look up \'ad hominem\' and \'straw man\' logical fallacies. You should know what they are - you use them all the time. They are a tedious feature of many postings on message boards - not normally disturbing, but you are in a position of power over the rest of us (as you often remind us) and theoretically trained to be a little bit more thoughtful and circumspect. If that\'s the sort of false logic you pursue when you investigate (when and if you bother by the sound of it) then to echo Stuart \'we really are in trouble\'. Does it matter? Yes, it does imo because here you are - a serving police officer - saying that anybody with a grudge against their ex partner can phone crimestoppers and report them, and the police will be around *without any checking, verification, additional intelligence, whatever* to arrest them and search their property. Lots of worried people read this board and don\'t post - I bet you\'ve really set their minds at rest and given them confidence in their police force. Anyway, I\'ve emailed Crimestoppers for their view on what you\'ve said. I don\'t expect they\'ll like it much since it goes entirely against their code of ethics/practice. Of course, if I was malicious or felt strongly enough I could also make a formal complaint since I know the police force you work for and your job role (not really internet safety conscious for an \'expert\' are you?)..now that would be a case of the biter bit, wouldn\'t it?

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Threatening another poster on this board noidea, in any form, is reprehensible and completely out of order!!!!

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

To paraphrase obi..dont like that? dont throw your weight about and i will leave you be.. and I return to you *your* usual comment ray - \'lol\'

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Threatening behavoir is not big, not clever, and far from amusing.

Stuart

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

Err....this is getting silly.... Ray, where is threatening behaviour in all of this.... Oh my head hurts....

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

Stuart- i wasnt using those sits for that i was using it to explain the difference between police arrest powers and citizens... however- they are correct - if someone points to me and says \'that man assaulted me\' I have a power of arrest -yes... i may not use it- of course... i might be a little more cautious ... but even so... the power is there... noidea- am i at risk on this site? what is it that you find so upsetting? what i said or - that what i said might be true? I could put your mind at rest... but since you have tried -unsuccessfully- to intimidate me... I will give you what you want... if you pass your email address i will give you my badge number and EXACT location- and the telephone number of the HQ... then you can walk into a police station and make a complaint... you should- because i wont stop- i WONT BE INTIMIDATED BY YOU... ok? \'if you dont throw your weight about\' lol... who are you to threaten anyone here? i was wrong to suggest that OATES could be traced... i know that- and i appologised... i dont really have an issue with him anymore- because he is hurting- and i am too... and it wont stop... but, if you think i will be co-erced by you - you are gravely mistaken... so - i await your response... or better still- dont bother- i will get my DI to look at the above tommorrow... ok?

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

stuart- dont worry- i will remove the main problem here - me! anyway good luck ex-copper... i never asked why you packed it in... i know i have said it before - but after that exchange- i think its best I leave...

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

Obi, I\'m content to leave my post as it stands - notice (through your red mist) that I said *if* I was malicious or felt strongly enough I *could* make a complaint against you given that you\'ve been less than careful about the personal information you\'ve disclosed. That\'s hardly a threat - for one thing, a complaint is just a complaint, and has to go through a process before it\'s upheld or not. You know, an assembly of the facts, an evaluation of what\'s gone on, that sort of thing..much more than your average crimestopper process according to you. If you think that it\'s threatening or intimidating or coercion (what am I trying to coerce you to do btw?) to suggest a public servant may be called to account for their actions or words, then you\'re really in the wrong job.

ray_of_sunshine

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:37

Thinly veiled threats hiding behind \'if\' and \'could\'. Bullies like you noidea have no place on this board. You are obviously are a nasty spitefull person.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

no red mist- noidea- post your email- and you can do what you say you may do... it might be a good thing? complaints against police are a necessary and vital thing... i would never advise anyone not to do it... if you are aggrieved - post your address... and i will give you all of my details- no problem. if you dont believe that what i have said is true... then you should really make the complaint... it will sort me out and you can post the truth? i will keep an eye on this post -and only post again if you complain- and then only to post the result...

Stuart

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

I think that this has all gotten out of hand people..... Now....big group hug.....

Martin

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:40:14

RoS, I don\'t think you read Owls post properly. She suggested that after the allegation has been made, if the police then do *nothing*, then they are not likely to; \"suddenly have a discovery that an allegation is false unless of course the person making the allegation says its false and they made it up\" \"Until then they have to keep doing thorough investigation\" If you are saying \'yes they did\', (have a sudden discovery of information although they have done *nothing*, WITHOUT a self confession of making it up), what can you mean? I can only think of Mohommed coming down from the mountains type answers lol

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

still waiting for the email address...

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Yep Martin at least you got what I meant even if it was lost on Ray. Oh dear looking at this thread, Obi has descended into new levels of silliness and over reaction. Obi please get some help to address your anxieties and issues.

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

Had a small bet with myself that if I didn\'t respond last night, I\'d get one of those \'still waiting\' posts. Of course I\'m not going to give you any email address of mine. For the last time - I said *if* and *could* not *I have* or *I will*. I also said *malicious* - strong hint there that I wouldn\'t approve of such an action I believe. And think about it..what would be the grounds? Officer being silly on a message board? To spell it out even further, my comment was a rhetorical device intended to point out that you personally might not be so blase about the sort of treatment you\'re happy to defend the rest of us getting, ie a malicious complaint, hence \'the biter bit.\' Good grief.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

Anyway, I\'ve emailed Crimestoppers for their view on what you\'ve said. I don\'t expect they\'ll like it much since it goes entirely against their code of ethics/practice. sorry- how is that if? mmm? you dont think crimestoppers might pass that on? derrr....

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

i had a small bet that you wouldnt post your email address,,, funny that...

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

All I emailed was that \'a police officer\' had said the police can get a search warrant or make an arrest based solely on anonymous information given to Crimestoppers, and if that\'s not the case how do they (Crimestoppers) actually know that it doesn\'t happen. No personally identifying information given and not a complaint, merely an enquiry. I take it that\'s allowed.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

so - is that what they call in the trade \'an embassing climb down\'? you said \'if\' \'could\'... that wasnt if could was it? that was \'you did\' ... so economical with the truth ... but ok to stick the boot into me? as i say- put up or shut up...

Martin

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:40:14

Can\'t see where noidea has put the boot into you Obi? Care to highlight that bit please?

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

I *did* email Crimestoppers with my enquiry as outlined above, I *could* have complained to your employers *if* I was malicious etc. Couldn\'t very well make a complaint to Crimestoppers about someone who doesn\'t work for them could I? You seemed to understand the distinction when you posted \'if you pass your email address i will give you my badge number and EXACT location- and the telephone number of the HQ...then you can walk into a police station and make a complaint...\' I don\'t see how I\'ve been economical with the truth.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

as i say- put up or shut up... because you are now boring me... make a complaint- or please give it a rest... martin- oh what\'s the point? if you dont see it, why should i bother pointing it out? since you think i am SO stupid and unaware of my powers (the ones I have been using for 20-years... sucessfully...) why not just make up your own laws - or better still- dont and instead just say to someone that actually does work in that profession - i dont like it, so i will accuse you of not knowing what they are doing... if you look at the top of this \'thread\' you might work out that i was the one that was originally pointing out that i didnt like the idea of being accused???? mmmm?

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

It\'s pretty boring for me to have to spell everything out but I do I have the right of reply to your misinterpretations. You don\'t have the right to shut me up.

BFS

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:35

Noidea I wouldn\'t get sucked in to the argument. It seems that everyone involved, with the exception of Obi can roughly understand what everyone else is saying. If I were in Obi\'s shoes (and I have been), I think I\'d have to open my eyes to the alternatives. I think perhaps Obi just struggles with women who are intellectually superior to him? Maybe he just struggles with women in general. Who knows? I\'m starting to think that no one can be this stupid, and that he\'s the one who\'s been winding us up for a while on here. Based on the 2 threads running now, it certainly appears that there is one common denominator. 20 years experience doesn\'t make you good at your job Obi. you\'r not doing a good job of convincing anyone you know what you\'re talking about either. Of course, I\'m not necessarily saying you\'re crap at it either, otherwise I guess you\'d have been promoted out of harms way by now. Same time, same place in a couple of months then.

Martin

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:40:14

Sorry, can\'t see it. Also can\'t see where anyone says you are SO stupid... I can\'t work out what the rest means... making up your own laws? etc... whoosh... straight over my head, the penny doesn\'t drop for me. If you can write in simple terms that\'ll be much appreciated. The irony that your fear of a kid mol accusation resurected this thread doesn\'t escape me though. Quite how you managed to interpret our rational fears of an OTT police reaction into some sort of personal attack on you escapes me though. I also don\'t see why noidea *has* to divulge an email address for you to give over your badge and cop shop address. Noidea could then post that on here? So why not cut out the middleman and just post your details? Perhaps because you want to \'groom\' noidea?

Martin

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:40:14

\"I\'m starting to think that no one can be this stupid, and that he\'s the one who\'s been winding us up for a while on here.\" Hmmm... good slant BFS.

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

\"Quite how you managed to interpret our rational fears of an OTT police reaction into some sort of personal attack on you escapes me though.\" Probably the same way he interprets his ex parenting her child to look after his stuff and understand consequences as being a personal attack on him (Obi), Martin. Or her not answering her phone when he calls as a personal attack on him. Or her taking him to court for non payment of CM as a personal attack on him. The latter two could equally be interpreted as setting boundaries, but maybe Obi is uncomfortable with people doing that. He\'d rather dictate the boundaries for others. Its all about him see and his need for control.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

a i say- owl always takes what i say as somekind of proof i am a control freak and suggests (in a subtle way) that i am to blame for my poor wife\'s behaviour... martin- nice try... but i have been groomed by professionals... you are not really an issue... i have no intention of \'grooming\' anyone... the offer to give my details was gen... to the person that made a halfarsed threat to make a complaint- she wormed her way out of that... and ran for the hills... as do most bullies when confronted. i have posted on this forum for a few years now- i would like to think i have helped some people- but i know i have issues with people that dont believe me (owl/CO/Martin et al)... this is because if you havent been through what i have been through- you dont have ANY idea of what its like and how it affects you. most people take the line that people like owl take- oh well it was nasty - but her feelings are important too and you need to move on a deal with it... as to rational fears? i explain what i have actually SEEN and EXPIERENCED to you muppets and you take it out of me!!>!>!>! write to your mp you idots- my tutor gave me some good advise a long time ago- \'the public gets the police it deserves and you can please some of the people some of the time- not all of the people all of the time\'... for me- my experience of the public is mixed- i think most are behind us- some armed with knives... i guess i have found a few...

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

I\'m not really arguing with obi BFS, just applying a little gentle correction ;-) It\'s good to know that other people understand what I was saying though - it was starting to slip into the surreal a few times there.. Maybe obi is a WUM? Maybe he gets wound up into incoherence when he\'s challenged? Maybe he posts when he\'s drunk? Who knows - but whatever the circumstances the poster has got some major \'issues\' and I wish for his sake he would acknowledge that and get some help. It must be pretty painful for him living with that persona.

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi I am not suggesting you are responsible for your EX WIFES behaviour. I am stating you are responsible for YOUR behaviour though. Which is stating the obvious really. Martin you see m to have joined the apparently \"select group\" that Obi has issues with. Obi may I respectfully suggest that you have more issues than that. I have no need to write to my MP as my dealings with the police have always been fine and I have found them very helpful when I have needed them. From experience they are reasonable and don\'t abuse their powers. Its your assertions that I find worrying Obi but hey you are just an anonymous poster on a messageboard and who knows like your address you may be making your occupation up as well to protect your anonymity. Either way I don\'t think your rantings are worth troubling myself over. At least you acknowledge that your experiences have affected you. How about taking some advice and get some help for that. Sensible people in your position do.

Martin

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:40:14

Obi, you are coming across as deranged now. You are writing answers to questions that haven\'t been asked. None of us \'muppets\' had a pop at YOU personally, we were just expressing a reaction to what we see as ott police reaction to a single anonymous phone call. Please feel free to print this thread off and show it to your \'professional groomer\', for want of a better expression. No-one else appears to be reading between the lines and finding hidden meanings. I\'d like to think that you are a genuine poster, one who has a situation that I have a great deal of sympathy for, and believe it or not, someone who holds a job that I have respect for. You are making me doubt things with your sometimes inane way of responding. Best wishes

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

None of us \'muppets\' had a pop at YOU personally... ********** brainwashed cunt? Perhaps because you want to \'groom\' noidea? I think \"Fuck off\" is in order. Obi, you are coming across as deranged now ******* missed those ? read between the lines? believe it or not, someone who holds a job that I have respect for.=- yes i can see the respect- the whole post is dripping with it...

Martin

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:40:14

As I said, you see, hear & read what you want to see, hear & read. You are unable to differentiate between a retalioratory comment, and a probing question, especially when it\'s tongue in cheek. Consequently when, what should be a reasonable ask for an explanation, of what appears to a \'muppet\' as an unjustified response, a tirade comes back, because you feel that the incredulous response is a personal attack, and NOT bewilderment at the police\'s method\'s of operation. We thought that you were on our side, and we sought re-assurance. Perhaps something like, \"We don\'t take such accusations likely, but it has to be weighed up whether a child is in danger or not. So we have to respond accordingly. However, in all my years, i\'ve only come across one/five/sixty/whatever cases of false accusation. It doesn\'t happen often.\"

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Martin\'s right Obi. Further when you feel personally attacked, although the person you feel personally attacked by is not attacking you , they are just trying to engage you in reasoned enquiries and debate, you react by personally abusing and attacking them. On this thread when you have done that you have got reactionary retalioratory comments back that you have just posted. Because you have been just as rude and offensive and abusive. You then use these responses taken out of context to turn yourself into the victim and blame the very people who you have abused and attacked in the first place. What was happening here is that they were asking you a question about police processes because it wasn\'t how they saw it or thought it should be. They were trying to discuss process with you Obi. Instead you see it as a personal attack. That you do is down to you and your thought processes. The same thing has happened on this thread when people have suggested you were perhaps lacking in perspective. You again see someone asking you to reflect on your response and reaction as a personal attack and then you come out on the defensive attacking. Now I\'d say this pattern has happened before off the board as well.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

dont remember calling anyone a cunt... or telling them to fuck off... can you pair read? i dont care what you say- calling someone a cunt is personal and a direct attack... owl- Now I\'d say this pattern has happened before off the board as well. you just cant resist a little dig can you owl? if what martin said is not personal- fuck off you pair of cunts... dont worry - its only a retalitory comment...

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Obi, why do you act with moral outrage when someone swears at you or calls you names but think it quite acceptable that you swear, name call and issue personal attacks and insults? Your double standards are amazing. You obviously have little personal insight into your verbally abusive behaviour, nor your anger management issues. Until you get some personal insight into your own behaviour things are probably not going to get better for you. Lets hope your kids can just get on in spite of it.

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

Owl, you\'re not going to get anywhere with obi. I\'m not saying he\'s beyond help, but he\'s beyond the type of help that\'s available through the medium of a message board. DNFTT, or in this case (maybe) Do Not Feed the Cycle, is my advice.

Martin

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:40:14

I give up. As i said, you can\'t spot the difference between a reactionary and retaliatory comment that was made *after* being accused of downloading child porn myself. Shame that you couldn\'t engage in articulate exchange between ordinary citizens with fears due to your position as investigator, judge, jury, & executioner. The only thing you managed to read right was the name calling. If i write any more, we\'ll evole in to \'he started it\' playground stuff. Noidea: \"The issue is about invading somebody\'s life and property on the say so of one anonymous call.\" Martin: \"One would hope that a *single* anonymous phone call to crimestoppers reporting someone for suspected downloading of child porn would *not* result in plod arriving mob handed without even checking if there was a phone line, or an ISP subscription, or similar background checks first.\" \"I\'m (obviously) only interested in the innocent party being set up scenario here.\" \"It\'s a completely OTT reaction to *one* anon phone call IMO.\" That\'ll do for me.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

funny- i say something non direct in a general way about you have nothing to fear from the police if you dont download indecent images of kids- and not so smarty marty - takes it as a DIRECT statement that he not only supports it but actually does it... and noone says a dicky... then he calls me a cunt- a word you dont often hear said even at the sharp end of my job... and noone says a dicky... then someone makes a thinish threat to actually do what we were discussing to me- and noone says a dicky... except ray- who is then turned on by the pack... in this threat i have been : called a cunt told to fuck off deranged suggested that i have mental health issues anger management issues told i dont know my job (even when i have given circs -recent circs backing up what i have said) suggestion that i am in someway responsible for the way my ex wife treats me and the kids thats your idea of support? thats your idea of being respectful to the police? thats your idea of being empathic to another person? i think there are people here with deep seated issues against authority and the police and use me to exact their feelings... I am a police officer- yes- but i am also a human being first- and then a father before i get to copper... i can be hurt- i can be made angry - i can be made to feel ashamed etc... I came to this board to get support by giving my experience of working with people in the community... in 20-years i have never had a complaint- really - i have drawn my baton once and cs once... and i have worked in the roughest areas you can imagine. not saying that to be seen as supercop- just that i can speak to people and get to the truth- then they calm down. i cant enagage in articulate discussion martin- with people that dont listen/believe what i have to say- its not my opinion- its statute. I did not accuse you of downloading- READ what i wrote... it was a general comment- like \'dont speed and you wont get points\' isnt saying you speed martin... i am not invest judge etc... just the investigator... as to the crimestoppers- i can only repeat -again- that with most matters- we will require other evidence- but with child protection stuff- its a VERY different ball game... a child may be being abused. i always prefer to err on the side of caution- you lot are taking it personal because you see yourselves in the firing line... well - welcome to the war... noidea\'s indignant -its about personal space invation etc... oh right much more important than a childs right not to be nonced on... and - its a completely OTT reaction to *one* anon phone call IMO.\" oh really... you would sing a different tune if you found out that your missus new partners bloke had anon intel saying he was a downloader (ergo may have a sexual interest in kids) and the police did nothing... as my old chief once said- \'overreact- critisised- under react- crucified...\' I find the irony of this whole post in some ways amusing- it was me - yes? that highlighted the problem of false accusation- and me that got a kicking |? funny old world...

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

\'someone makes a thinish threat to actually do what we were discussing to me\' No I didn\'t. See posts passim. \'noidea\'s indignant -its about personal space invation etc... \' = the issue \'oh right much more important than a childs right not to be nonced on...\' = your conclusion. Illogical inference - deflects from the central argument as an avoidance tactic. See posts passim. \'you would sing a different tune if you found out that your missus new partners bloke had anon intel saying he was a downloader (ergo may have a sexual interest in kids) and the police did nothing...\' You\'re fond of assuming what other people think. In my case you\'d be wrong - I would still expect some checking to be done. What you\'re saying is usual and justified practice in your line of work gives carte blanche to malicious callers and grudge holders. You\'ve done a very neat job of publicising a no-risk way of people getting back at their ex-partners on a divorce site - well done.

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

In this thread (note not \"threat\") I have been called nasty and malicious, told I am bonkers and not as retaliatory comments yet I haven\'t reacted with anger and indignation Obi. I was even told what I would say before I posted, although you got that wrong too as they were not my views, nor what I have said previously. No Obi you can\'t engage in articulate conversation ,thats because you can\'t engage in logical argument. Martin can and was trying to do that with you but it was futile. Now we all have deep seated issues against the authority and the police apparently. You form this view on the basis of us questioning and commenting on your assertions of one aspect of police practice. And then you wonder why you get called \"deranged\". Your paranoia and sense of victimhood is amazing. You are the one turning this into a personal argument as you can\'t seperate yourself from the issue or discussion. To me thats a very worrying trait to be displayed in a serving police officer who is expected to exercise professional objectivity and dispassion in their role. We of course can question police practice Obi, thats not being disrespectful in a democrtic society. That you seem unable to grasp that and interpret our questioning as disrespectful displays your inflated sense of entitlment. It the \"Oscar Bravo, Look at me I\'m important, I am special I am a Police Officer so that makes me automatically entitled to be looked up even if I am being a pillock\" attitude of yours that you have revealed on these boards more than once. You are not the only person on these boards who has special rights and privileges arising from their occupational status Obi, but that does not automatically mean that we are entitled to respect at all costs. Noone has suggested you are responsible for the way your ex-wife treats you btw way Obi. I have stated you are responsible for your OWN behaviour and reactions. Of course you because of the space your in can\'t grasp that distinction.

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

Oh, and by the way - If you misinterpret a post, eg my \'threat\', and most don\'t, then surely the larger responsibility for misinterpretation lies with you and your reading of the post - just as it lay with me when I misinterpreted a post of yours as *intentionally* crass on another thread. If Martin misinterprets your \'don\'t do it\' post, and the majority interpret it in the same way that he does, then again the major responsibility for the misinterpretation surely lies with you and the way you\'ve written the post.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

did the majority take it i said they were peodophiles? i dont think so... and you cant have it both ways- its either the poster or the reader... anyway- i dont really think you would get it no matter how i posted it- you just have a problem with me- thing i dont get is why... surely you should be more upset with the people that called me a \'brainwashed-cunt\' - show me where i haved posted such a thing? anyway...

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

\'thing i dont get is why...\' Then think about it. That\'s what most people would do if they evoked the kind of responses you do. Regarding the use of the offensive word - in your righteous indignation you\'ve managed to use it least 7 times to Martin\'s once (for which he apologised).

Martin

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:40:14

Your style of writing Obi leads to misinterpretation at times. It\'s not just this thread. I\'m still of the opinion that I would prefer the police to make some very basic background checks on a person first, rather than just getting a warrant, entering and seizing equipment (if they are even found to have any?) on the strength of just *one* single anonymous phone call. I\'m saying that it\'s possible that the police could upset children as well by this seemingly, to me anyway, knee jerk reaction to a single anonymous \'tip off\'. Have you actually come across a malicious, unfounded, \'tip off\' yet, where action like you describe was taken, only to find no substance to the allegation? Added By obiwankenobi on 11-10-2008 \"surely you should be more upset with the people that called me a \'brainwashed-cunt\' - show me where i haved posted such a thing?\" Added By obiwankenobi on 09-10-2008 \"fuck off you pair of cunts...\" PMSL... :)

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

we do background checks- address/intel/impact ini/dhss/social serv/probation/pnc/visor/ but as i indicated since- most sex offenders NEVER come into contact before arrest for thier index offence.- they are of limited use... yes- to question re malicious- nasty piece of work she was... just the other day... also- a crimestoppers anon that ended up in a warrant... this man had NO previous for child sex offences- NO previous for sexual crime at all... enough for us to get a warrant... you see, anon calls- are INTELLIGENCE- it may be poor intel... but intel it is... i have also delt with a nasty sit where ex has told us her ex hubby is touching up his kids and making them masturbate together etc... however, its diff because she has done it before... its unlikely he is doing these things- but they are sTILL investigated- because the childrens safety is paramount... and of course- ray of sunshines? PMSL? lordy... if you look at what i wrote- i said actually said: if what martin said is not personal- fcuk off you pair of cnuts... dont worry - its only a retalitory comment... DISCLAIMER: the last four lines are not the opinion of obiwankenobi in any way- they are an attempt to show the other poster that should we decide that its ok for someone to say anything -no matter how offensive- to another poster and write it off as a \'retalitory\' comment- they might throw it back in your face... oh he appologised to you- but not to me- and since it was directed to me... i would have thought that i would have been the obvious target...

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

Oh, so it was the fact it was directed at you and not the word itself that was the problem? Must be since you\'ve repeated the word so often. Well in that case, us muppets, idiots and wonkers (not forgetting the hippy twonk no doubt) are forming an orderly queue for an apology from you..PMSL too!

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

i see- its not ok for me to use retaliatory comments? i just want to get the rules straight so i dont screw up again... oh and just for the record dc1606 ford west mids police

Owl1

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:36:10

Make retaliatory comments if you want to Obi, just don\'t get all indignant and het up when you are the target of retaliatory comments yourself when you feel quite entitled to issue them yourself. In other words if you are going to dish it out, toughen up and take your own medicine without the whingeing.

Martin

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:40:14

If you had initially responded (to the question raised) in the way that you just have, then most of this thread could have been avoided. However, perhaps without realising it, you responded in a way that showed indignation, and contempt really, that us \'muppets\' should dare question the police and their methods. If your fishing for an apology Obi, I regret to inform you that one isn\'t coming. I\'ve re-read the above and IMO it\'s a considered response given the circumstances. I do however express sorrow that circumstances evolved that made me use that word, for the first time in several years on this forum, perhaps to the detriment of other posters equally entitled to use this forum.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

martin err... i did... you just didnt like the answers... apols not given freely are not appols... as to dare question methods etc- you know something mate? its not that i didnt like... you have a perfect right to challenge my OPINION no issues with that at all- i may disagree but i would fight to the death to make sure you continued to have that right.. no- its more that you and others- questioned what i had SEEN and DONE like it was making it up or lying... didnt like that at all.. dont like being called a liar by people that DONT have the practical experience of doing what i do... owl- once more on this thread you have confirmed what i think about you and how you like to play your little niggley mind games... please pick on someone else- its got to be someone else\'s turn now? oh and noidea - as you have my details- you can make your complaint- without the fear of being \'groomed\'... have a good one..

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

Rewriting history obi? It\'s plain that you lost your rag at the point where the thread had moved on to an expressed disquiet at police methods.- ie Martin\'s post. This was your response: \'what is it with people like you? you scream at us we should be more like gene hunt- and yet when its seems even remotely like thats a possibility you run crying to mummy...\' etc etc Doesn\'t sound much like you respect other people\'s right to challenge your opinion or police methods to me. \'oh and noidea - as you have my details- you can make your complaint- without the fear of being \'groomed\'...\' Never asked for your details and don\'t want them, clearly said I wasn\'t going to make a complaint, never been afraid of being \'groomed\' - that was a joke of Martins. Barking.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

yes i know martin said it- i dont remember saying you did... post that please? i did loose my rag yes- most people dont like being called a liar directly or by inference- i am no different... dont sound like i like a challenge? well you have my details now so - put up or shut up... make a complaint or stop whinging... if you dont believe me- or dont like the way we do stuff- make a complaint! if not just deal with it..

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

For those still interested/capable of rational thought at this stage, apparently Crimestoppers do assess the calls they get so only about 12% actually go through to be \'actionable\' ie passed on to the police or other agencies. So there are some checks and balances before operational police get their hands on it. \'After a call is logged the information is normally first considered by the officer taking the call. A report is then dispatched to the appropriate divisional intelligence unit, incident room or specialist agency (such as Customs & Excise or Local Authority) depending on the nature of the intelligence. There were variations between the units. In particular, London officers were able to make a more thorough preliminary assessment of information before it was passed on to investigating officers in divisions. This reduces the proportion of such intelligence items that are subsequently found to be of no value.\' The evaluation this was taken from is quite old, but nevertheless slightly re-assuring. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/prgpdfs/brf1001.pdf

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

interesting- didnt know that- we tend to do our own intel checks anyway... i do know that crimestoppers has done some big fups - but they only process the data... the NIM (national intelligence model) gives a 5x5x5 coding system for intelligence- i would say that stuff from crimestoppers not verified in any way would be- E41... unknown source-cant be tested easy-source not known to officer etc... however, it is still usuable intel. Not the same value as A11 or B21 etc but still usable... and can be enough to get warrants... also, remember- i dont need a warrant anyway.. i have powers of entry and siezure linked to arrest- so if i suspect there are images on someones computer- i can enter (by force if req) and have the computer away following a sec 32 pace search. we did a job the other day where a man who was convicted in another force area years ago- ended up on us... in a family... we obtained a warrant to sieze the computers of that home... no problem. now- you may say \'foul!!! those peoples computer had NOTHING to do with him! but he had access to them.. so we can have them...\' i know it sounds scary that you may be arrested for say - indecent assault - and the police can have your computer- but its a like offence (esp if its against a child)... we dont exercise those powers lightly... but we do exercise them. I AM feeling a bit remorseful... about my attitude and actions to owl/martin/noidea... i know i get defensive about my role- i am not sure why TBH... if i had to guess- it would be that i care a great deal about what we do and i hate the idea that we are not valued or rubbished by (not saying you did this btw...) the very people we are trying to help or protect... it gets to me.. but they day it dont would mean i probably dont care any more... and then i would just give up anyway. you may find this hard to believe but i am considered to be a calm insightful and knowledgable officer and am often asked for my opinion by senior officers... esp in the face of the above post... i will try to be nicer in future- and if i have caused the above named posters offence then i am sorry.

noidea

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:29

I do take your point obi about there not necessarily being intelligence about paedophiles as they can be active without any arrests and so on - same as CRB checks (I worry when people think that they are the be all and end all of safe practice, since all they *really* tell you is that someone hasn\'t been caught yet). Still a bit uneasy about \'one call\' is enough to action bit, but maybe the person at Crimestoppers is highly trained enough to weed out the genuine from the malicious? Also, your example of the man with a previous conviction in another area - fair enough it seems to me, since we know these men can target families. Re feeling remorseful - I feel a bit ungracious, but I think I\'d prefer to reserve judgement given your past tendencies to jump in with both feet and apologise afterwards. We could have had the above exchange of views and information many post ago, and that\'s all that was asked of you really.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

i dont think- they do much weeding ... i understand how you may feel... really. i feel the same... and lets face it- most of us here have been through the wringer... emotionally and in other ways... take care...

Stuart

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:39:14

\"I\'m still of the opinion that I would prefer the police to make some very basic background checks on a person first, rather than just getting a warrant, entering and seizing equipment (if they are even found to have any?) on the strength of just *one* single anonymous phone call.\" They do. Obi, just a friendly note, by posting your shoulder number and details on here you are leaving yourself wide open to being accused of bringing your force into disrepute. You have mentioned bits and pieces on here which really perhaps shouldnt be talked about.

obiwankenobi

Joined:
Posts:
Location:


Message

Posted: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 - 10:34:41

stuart- i did it so that people COULD complain without any secret squirrel stuff- i dont normally say anything that could incriminate me ... disrepute? how? by posting the truth? in law - truth is TOTAL defense... cases i have spoken about are not live and the results of which are in the public domain anyway... also- i have not mentioned anything about police proceedures that is to do with any covert ops- again no issues... but i thank you for your concern. mind you martin did say if i was serious about giving noidea my details i should post them- i was- so i did... i am afraid the warrant system is worse than most people think... in some cases we dont need any evidence at all to force entry and search- under the new regs for sex offenders if they dont answer the door and we suspect they may be doing it on purpose- we can get a warrant to force entry to check for risky items etc... we can ask for a number of addresses and a number of entries! its going to get worse before it gets better...
You need to login / register to post a reply.