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Subject: Makes you wonder
Posted By Kat007 on 19-11-2009
So I should be surprised really butit does make me wonder,
Ex is so angry he lost in court that he has again taken to using our children as a weapon against me. Telling them Mum did this and she has taken all my money I hate her etc Nice.
So how do I deal with angry children telling me I am horrible, this is so F***ing frustrating again. Those poor kids.
Follow up comments
Added By Owl1 on 19-11-2009
Kat, this is what you do.
You write down the value of all your marital assets on separation. You then write down all the marital debts on separation.
You then total the two columns up to give the net assets. As I understand it this will be a negative value and so you and your ex had a total debt.
You then write a very short succinct note explaining to your children that despite their lifestyle their parents owed more money than the value of the assets they owned at the time of their separation. Therefore you had no money to take from their father nor he from you. You were both insolvent.
Explain what did have to be resolved by the Court was how each of you were going to pay on the debt owing on the your house once it sold ( the negative equity). The Courts looked at the income of your ex which was xxxx amount and your income which was xxxxamount. They then determined that as your ex earns much more a week than you he had to take sole responsibility for the negative equity. You then explain to your children that when people live beyond their means that is what happens they have more debt than they have assets.
You then need to advise your children that since separation your ex has acquired an asset that being a small share in the house he and his np now live in. Then explain that once the house is sold you do not have any significant assets.
Do all that factually, which is why I recommend that you put it all in writing.
Finish by saying you understand their father is angry about the situation that he finds himself in but that does not mean you are solely to blame. Express your dissapointment that they think you have been horrible as you know you have not.
Then explain that going forward you will have a much reduced income and that you need them to understand that so that they can come to terms with the fact that they will experience a lower standard of living than they have been accustomed too. Reassure them that that will be OK.
Kat I think ER made a good point last week. It does noone any good to hide the facts. Your children need to have an awareness of the economic environment in which they live. They are old enough to cope with those facts and digest them.
Now all of that may not dissipate your children's anger at you. The whole situation may make them angry and you are the easy target. But at least they have a basis from which to make informed judgments
Added By Simes 2p on 19-11-2009
Is it really a good idea to involve the children in their parents dispute?
Is Kat wise to do the same as her ex?
Will the children be bovvered? As long as they get treats and the latest goodies will they care about negative equity and court orders.
I think there is a place for the truth with children, but often the truth is unpalatable and unnecessary.
Maybe it is better to rise above it.
For all of ER's cleverness and brains, (and good looks too), I don't think I have ever agreed with her on a single point. One of us must be wrong and it could be me without doubt.
Owl on the other hand I find myself in awe of, and wouldn't dream of disagreeing with. (Puts me in a dilemma when she agrees with ER!)
Hoot hoot.
Added By Owl1 on 19-11-2009
Simes I think its always a good idea to let children know the factual basis of their economic situation whether their parents are married or not.
Children depend on their parents to support them financially so it does impact on them. I always knew the roughly my parent's economic status. Most of the time I was not bovvered ( love that word) but I did know the limits of their budget and was realistic.
The truth is often unpalatable to children but children cannot always be protected from unpalatable truths. They are part of life, children can't be shielded from them.
And how do children come to have financial and economic literacy if they are never explained the fundamentals?
Added By Simes 2p on 19-11-2009
Hoots, I had absolutely no idea of my parents economic worth, and still don't really. If I asked for something and they said they couldn't afford it, I let it go at that. Never wondered why they couldn't. I suppose I could have sat them down and given them some careers advice and checked they were getting a good deal on their utilities, but I was unaware of those things.
Had I known the true worth of money, I wouldn't have been impressed at being in the Army for 8 weeks and earning £75.
In Kats position, they have a stinking rich dad and a pauper of a mother. The truth is that the rich dad is an arse and a dickhead and won't give pauper mum enough to buy food. pauper mum has love and care in bucketloads, and is rich in the right decent aspects of life. Rich dad is still a prick. The truth is not going to help them much, other than maybe highlight what a dick the dad is.
Is that helpful to them? I don't think so.
I suppose I learnt the facts of financial management from my pocket money and if I bought too many sweets I had nothing left. Stayed with me all my life really, never enough money and too many sweets.
Kat telling the kids the truth will not help anyone or anything.
But I can't disagree with you, so you could be right.
Love & Hugs
Hoot hoot
Added By Owl1 on 19-11-2009
You may well be right Simes.
I have to disagree with you though that the kids have a stinking rich Dad. He is an income rich but asset poor Dad who eats too many sweets that he can't afford. Which is the real reason he finds himself in the dilemma he is now! Whatever he is still a complete arse!
But I do think we fail our kids on the financial literacy side. To be honest my parents net worth was not much, just the house with a mortage that Dad wrote a cheque out for once a month that Mum had to deposit the next day so not much to tell.
My question is how do Kat's kids learn not to repeat the mistakes of their father if they can't see the real reason he is in financial trouble?
It might be the long term view.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 19-11-2009
well the reason I am in financial hardship-ville is because I pay out £500 per month in legal fees... thanks DIRECTLY to my ex-wife stopping access...
Added By Simes 2p on 19-11-2009
Hoots,
I think the best that we can do with our kids is to show a good example, and point them in the right direction.
I probably failed on both counts.
Kat is not going to be able to demonstrate to her kids what an arse their dad is, because he is the one flashing the cash about and giving them what they want.
If she says 'Live your life like me and be nice to people, be soft, show love and affection and you will be a contender for Mother Teresa's crown, they will probably say 'No thanks, Dads got a new widescreen tv so I am going round there tonight'
You can't protect them from life, and the best way to learn is to go out and get some knocks.
Anyway, I am trying to advise some 16 year old thief on what the Courts will do to him and where he will be held in custody having failed to previously surrender on bail, third offence, and he had drugs on him too, and you try giving me deep philosophical questions about how many gobstoppers you can get with your pocket money. Leave me to the easy problems please!
Hope you are seeing your son at Xmas.
L&H
Hoot hoot
Added By Kat007 on 19-11-2009
This has stirred some debate and some valid points too, thank you all so much.
I did speak to the kids seperately given the difference in ages I felt the younger one wouldn't understand the way I explained to the older one. So I said that although you have said you don't want to know about money I just need to explain a few things and why sometimes when you ask me for expensive gifts/items I can not buy them. Showed income and expenditure, said if she needed money for herself she would have to earn it by hoovering, washing up household chores etc they way she used when me and her father were together. She said that is fine and understands.
Youngest one I explained the above in simpler terms did not berate father at all as telling him his dad is an arse really isn't helpful, just simple to the point and guess what he didn't want to know he believed his dad and that was it, so I carried on talking with figures in front of us and left him to make a cuppa, caught him looking at them and just let him digest until he was ready to ask questions he did I answered and all clear he still didn't like it though. He asked who made the judge say things and I just told the judge works out what is the right thing for us and dad and that was all they did, and sometimes the other person doesn't agree but it is the law. Off to bed he went and no more said.
I hope that's the end of it but it won't be I just wait for the next thing which will be the ex going for residency again YAWN.
I will be off for a few days so best wishes and thanks everyone :)
Added By sometimesitdoesn'twork on 20-11-2009
In E&W divorcing spouses are under a duty to use information given in court proceedings for the purposes of the proceedings only and there are restrictions on disclosing information. When the rules don't allow it strictly speaking disclosing information to *anyone* is contempt of court. It is possible to be charged for talking about a case in progress. Actively involving children will get a big black mark from the court.
Added By Owl1 on 21-11-2009
Simes I wouldn't want to distract you from your legal advising. Maybe in time you will find the deep philosophical questions a pleasing distraction !! ;-)
No I will not see my son this Christmas but spent a wonderful 5 weeks with him back in August exploring your country. We even passed through ( or rather by-passed and avoided) Stoke that place you think I secretly reside!
Son is now esconsed in study ( or otherwise) at his University of choice in the depths of the UK. At this moment he is rather hoping the AB's do the business in style today at Twickers which says that despite residing in good old England for nearly 4 years now he has not abandoned all good sense!
He is unsure of how he will spend Christmas but it will involve lots of chatting with all the extended family here ( the joys of modern technology). We try not to mention the brilliant sunshine and how the waves are looking or how calm the lake was, pavlova and fresh strawberries, barb-b-ques and cold beer, new potatoes and roast lamb, the family cricket game and afternoon swim and how its 10pm and still light so as to not make him too homesick!
Added By Kat007 on 21-11-2009
Owl Australia or New Zealand?
Added By EnglishRose on 21-11-2009
Most clever children can understand the fact - like daddy left mummy for a much younger pretty woman because he wanted sex from her and prefers destroying our lives to sticking with mummy who never gave him sex. Or Mummy left daddy because he hit her. I think most are clever enough to understand too that both parents didn't get on but could be happier later. They can also understand the vast majority of women ni the UK work and keep themselves by and large and if they have a parent who doesn't and theya re worse off after a divorce then yest to an extent it's the mother's fault even if she has spent 10 years washing their underwear. This is why women should not give up careers. it's not fair on children on divorce.
Added By Owl1 on 21-11-2009
Kat - NZ, its not light in Aussie till 10pm at night like here it gets dark around 6-7pm.
ER for an intelligent woman you do talk tosh sometimes.
All children of divorcing mothers who are not in the paid work-force ( ALL mothers work ER, its just some are not paid) I know that do not blame their mothers for their more impoversihed life on divorce. They actually can see the facts and can see that it is a direct result of their parents separating. They usually don't blame anyone at all. They are just grateful that throughout their childhood someone they love ( as opposed to someone paid for by their parents) has provided continuity of care and attended to their day to day needs. The real sadness for children in that situation is that the separation may mean that they are left to their own devices like yours are while their mother takes on (usually low) paid work.
However most children in the situation you describe ER can rely on their mother getting a substantial divorce settlement plus CM and if necessary SM being paid as that is what the Law determines they are entitled to.
Its not usually the children that are bitter ER , its parents like you and Mr Kat who are have to pay out that are the bitter ones and do the blaming.
Added By Kat007 on 22-11-2009
Nice post Owl very clear and to the point and so so right thank you my head still full of drugs after sugery which went very well, but just mushy headed.
Here's a question.
Ex owes me SM, sol has suggested putting a charging order on his property he owns with GF, I am ok with this, but it then would have a knock on effect re- negative equity if that is how he will borrow it. It has beed suggested by my pops we give him an opportunity to pay up by mid december explaining that if he doesn't pay by a certain date then we slap the order on. I think this will show fairness to the judge if we then have to return it to court we also am giving him an opportunity to set all d/d's up again.
So are we doing the right thing or should we just slap the order with no niceness what do you lot think.?
Added By Simes 2p on 23-11-2009
Kat, personally, I wouldn't give a toss about showing fairness to the Judge when your ex can't show fairness to you.
Slap an enforcement action in now, and let the Courts sort it out.
It has to be said that the court impose an order for a reason, and that order should be respected and followed. End of story. If you take the pee with the court, suffer the consequences.
Added By Kat007 on 23-11-2009
Ta simes,
I think I will slap that order on as soon as I can get there.
I have had a call from the csa today thanking me for the information they asked for regarding the children As in the begining of this thread he had told them we had SR and most of the time with the kids etc and finally included his partners kids as living at his after me telling him too contact csa months ago. So they just rang and said they have looked into it again and that they will backdate adding our D to the time he contacted them two months ago so they have re-done an assessment so I asked if they will be reducing the CM and by how much but he said they will be increasing it given that they have looked into his finances and information he has given and that oh hang on his income has increased Surprise surprise, sure that's what I proved a few weeks ago.
So waiting for the fall out again because it will happen. :(
Added By Kat007 on 27-11-2009
ANd it did see above post :)
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