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Subject: and another one from me...its not turning out to be a good day
Posted By Jools123 on 29-11-2009
Hi,
I've just found out from my daughter that her mum is going to change her name.
Can she do this without my consent?
We were married when daughter was born.
However as I was not at the registration my ex called her by her surname.
It was an initial battle I was advised not to pursue and getting contact was more important. At that time I thought 'whats in a name'
Now ex is with new partner, I think they are getting married soon and believe she intends to change my daughters name to that of her new partner (or so my daughter seemed to imply today).
Can this be done without me even knowing?
Its times like this I sometimes feel this is such an uphill struggle :-(
Follow up comments
Added By sometimesitdoesn'twork on 29-11-2009
If the parents of a child are married to each other at the time of the birth then they both have parental responsibility and a child's name cannot be changed without the consent of all those with PR.
Added By Jools123 on 29-11-2009
Thanks for this.
But could she try and bypass the procedure to do so?
Added By Owl1 on 29-11-2009
Jools, there is a child's legal name and then there is the name the child is known by.
I know of several children who are not known by their legal name.
I'm not sure that your ex can by-pass any procedure to change your child's legal name but she may choose not to change her legal name particularly if she thinks you would object. Instead she may just start using a new name for your daughter.
I suppose if all this eventuates you have to think again, whats in a name? Is it important to you? Is being consulted on everything that a parent with parental responsibility should be consulted on important to you?
Added By Jools123 on 29-11-2009
Owl - I suppose you're right regarding a name. After all I had to think like that when my ex didn't give my daughter my surname even though we were married at the time (although separated). I suppose I should think like that if something similar happens again.
It just seems like one thing after the next at the moment and I hate Sunday evenings after dropping my daughter off :-(
Added By Kat007 on 29-11-2009
Jool123,
Yes it is only a name I would not go back to my maiden name after divorce ex hates it but I did not want a different name to my kids and neither did they, But if your ex want to change her name legally she will have to do it through deed poll which is a long winded process apparently and yes she would have to have your permission to do it.
The other option is for you to have your daughter take your name. You can appeal that she does not legally change her name to the new blokes as he does not have any parental responsibility at all. Also you can actually have your name included at a later date on her birth certificate and is simple to do just make an appointment at the births,deaths and marriages register office.
And yes it is important to be consulted on matters I think.
Added By Simes 2p on 30-11-2009
It is illegal to allow a child to be known by another name unless you have the consent of all with PR.
Therefore, legal or not legal, she cannot let her be known by a different name.
Whether its a fight you want to take on or not, and I would suggest that yes, its a simple application, and I have yet to hear of a court that allowed it to happen, its all up to you, and you should consider things in the circumstances of your situation in its entirety.
At the moment though, maybe its just a rumour and its been said to wind you up.
Consider your circumstances, what things need fixing by the Court and what you can fix out of court.
I never call either of my boys by their proper name, but thats a fun father/son thing that they like. Having those 'pet' names used by others is a different ball game entirely.
Added By Jools123 on 30-11-2009
Thanks all - At least this sounds like one instance where things cannot be changed.
Hi Kat - Can I get my name put of the birth certificate without her mum agreeing? So at least my daughter has both names?
Added By Kat007 on 30-11-2009
I am not sure but I think you can it might be worth ringing up your local register office and they should be able to tell you yes or no and how to start the process. I would have thought that she would have to sign something to say your Dad etc etc.
Or wait if the csa contact you ask for a dna test get results 100% sure then she can't argue such a shame I think like this now never used to but hey research is good always best to be informed.
And here is how you re-register a birth got this from the royal borough kingston upon thames registry website so it should be the same accross the country ha ha so it can be done.
What to do if you wish to add the father's details to the birth certificate?
If your baby's birth was registered without including the natural father's details in the register, you can apply for the birth to be re-registered at a later date. You have two options:
If you and your partner have married each other since the baby’s birth, you can re-register the birth so that a new birth record can be made to show your son or daughter as a child of your marriage. To do this, you will need to complete a form LA1 which can be obtained from the register office. Once completed, you can make an appointment for either parent to visit the register office to sign the new birth registration. You will need to bring a copy of your marriage certificate along with you when you attend.
If you are unmarried and would like the natural father’s details added to the birth record you can apply for a re-registration to be made by completing a form GRO185 which is available from the registrar. Both parents must sign this form and attend together to sign the new birth registration.
After the birth has been re-registered you can obtain birth certificates from the new registration.
Added By sometimesitdoesn'twork on 30-11-2009
"Can I get my name put of the birth certificate without her mum agreeing? So at least my daughter has both names?"
Not without permission from the court. Courts take a very dim view of either parent unilaterally changing a child's name.
Added By sometimesitdoesn'twork on 30-11-2009
kat, if a couple were married at the time of the child's birth it is usual for both their details to be on the birth certificate, although that is a separate issue from changing the name when the consent from all those with Parental Responsibility or permission from the court is required.
Added By Stuart on 30-11-2009
Err, of course you can have your name added to the childs birth certificate.
She is your daughter too!!! Jeez, yet again mum taking bloody ownership!
"Is being consulted on everything that a parent with parental responsibility should be consulted on important to you?"
Err, yes Owl...when it comes to things like name changes.
If Jools lets this go then where does it stop? school changes? move out of the area?
Those who dont care are usually called uncaring.
My ex wife tried the same line about changing my sons name. She spun the yarn about him being the "odd one out" and for a short while it worked and he was worried.
I told him how could he be the odd one out when I have the same surname??
I told my stupid ex to go and royaly boil her head.
Needless to say he never changed his name...
Added By Jools123 on 30-11-2009
Just to clear the situation.
I'm named on the birth certificate but my daughter has her mums surname even though we were married at the same time. Her mum has since changed her name back to her maiden name which is now the same as my daughters.
I would love my daughter to have my name but since its recorded as her mothers name on the birth certificate then I had assumed I cant do much about it.
I obviously don't want her to take on a strangers name just because her mum might re-marry. After all he has no blood relation to my daughter.
Added By Kat007 on 30-11-2009
Right Jools,
As you are named on the certificate then why did ex use her maiden name for you daughter's last name very odd really, gather info on this subject off the web then approach your ex about it knowing you are informed of your rights and the rights of the child.
But first unless you have actually heard this from your ex then speak with her to be certain this is her intention, if it is then please don't let this drop. She can't do it without your permission it would not be legal, it was actually your ex wife's choice to change back to her maiden name but your daughter didn't even have that choice to take your surname.
And Stids, court might be were this ends up unfortunately if she changes her surname without consent of Dad then I would be so annoyed as would the courts and they would look very dimly on this sort of thing. It is almost like having Jools wiped out of daughters her life.
Or leave it as it is and then have to sit and explain to a child who has a different name from both her biological parents because Mum got re-married and took step dad's name. I think I know which I would rather happen. Jools ask the ex if it is true and then if she asks permission just say NO way.
Added By Owl1 on 30-11-2009
I don't think Jools' daughter having her mother's surname is odd at all Kat. There is no reason other than an old patriarchial tradition why a child should take its father's surname not its mothers. I know of increasing numbers of couples who are choosing for the child to have their mother's surnames not their father's including my neices and nephews.
Jools I think the decision you need to make still is how important is a name. Your child does not have your family name currently, a reality for nearly half the parenting population out there (that half still being mainly women). It does not diminish your place as a parent at all. It didn't diminish mine.
Courts may well take a very dim view of a parent unilaterally changing a name but the reality is on a practical level they cannot do much to change a non-legal change of name if thats what occurs. They can rap a parent over the knuckles but often the child still continues to be known by their non-legal name. Smart operators just agree with the Court that no legal name change will occur but then continue to use the name they want for the child.
You can apply to the Court to get the name changed back to yours but you may have to provide a convincing argument for that to occur, its not like you can say she should have a family name tied to bloodlines as she already has one.
I can understand why parents get annoyed about not being consulted on matters of parental responsibility but often even with Court sanctions on a practical level there is not a lot that can be done to enforce it. The decision has usually been made at that stage.
Added By Jools123 on 30-11-2009
Reason she used her surname was that we split up during pregnancy and my daughter was registered in my absence.
Added By sometimesitdoesn'twork on 30-11-2009
In England & Wales the legal position is that consent is required from all those with PR or permission from the courts to change a child's name. Where consent has not been obtained, there is a high chance that not all official record holders such as the Identity and Passport Service will accept the name change. If one parent changes a child's surnames without the appropriate consent the other parent may subsequently appeal to a court who will rule as to whether or not the name change is (a) necessary and (b) detrimental to the upbringing of the children. Unless a parent has been 'absent' for many years in the vast majority of cases a court will rule against changing the name and if necessary order it to be changed back. The courts may also attach conditions to contact orders that children are not to be called non legal names because research shows children who are insecure about their parental heritage, or what has happened in their lives, tend to grow up with low self esteem which leads to emotional problems, teenage pregnancies, poor relationships in adulthood etc. Thus separated parents changing a child's name is not normally seen as being in the best interests of the child.
Added By Teadrinker on 01-12-2009
I would have thought the fairest answer would be for your d to keep the surname she has now, which is hopefully what will happen. It doesn't seem right for her mum to change it to a new partner's name, though I know sometimes kids want that because they want the same name as the rest of the family they live with.
"She is your daughter too!!! Jeez, yet again mum taking bloody ownership!"
That's very ironic, Stuart, considering this thread is about children's surnames and in the UK most children take the father's surname. Jeez, these fathers who take bloody ownership! Or is it acceptable to you as long as it's a tradition?
I live with our son who has his father's surname. I didn't change my name on marriage or divorce so I've always had one surname and our son has always had another. Having two different surnames in the same household doesn't cause any problems and I have no problem with our son having a different surname (and nor does our son). We don't have the same first name and we don't have the same surname and the idea of sharing a surname really doesn't seem any more necessary or important to me than the idea of sharing a first name. He has his name (but first and surname) and I have mine (both first and surname).
Added By Owl1 on 01-12-2009
STIDW I am not talking about formal name changes or changes to any official documents. I am talking about informal changes whereby the child becomes universally known by a name other than their legal name.
The courts may well order a child be known by their legal name but such orders have little effect in practice unless parents abide by them and encourage others to do so.
Added By Owl1 on 01-12-2009
TD, I think for men often the issue of a surname and the insistence on their child bearing their surname is rooted in their underlying fear and knowledge that they can never really know that the child is really theirs. Its one outward way of staking a claim to something they can't just know.
We women always know we are the mothers of our children so taking ownership in that way is not so much of an issue.
Added By Simes 2p on 01-12-2009
Owl, I know this name thing is a well trodden argument, with women tending not to see it the same way as men, but if my children have my surname, which I am proud of, then I wouldn't want it to be changed. Unless of course I had a stupid surname which I hated.
If my child was named something at birth, that is who they are. They exist under that name. Changing it to suit a divorced womans choice is not reasonable.
If a woman marries, and changes her name, that is a choice that a mature adult takes. TD didn't, and that was her choice.
For a mother to change a childs name, it is not the child's choice, it is to help the mother feel part of a new nuclear family, or alternatively, and how men tend to view it, as cutting the man out of the childs life.
Thats why the Courts take a firm line with it. It has nothing to do with peoples choices to do what they like, it is the law. End of.
Whatever we may feel about it, and say its just tradition, and a free society should be able to do as it pleases, if the child wants to change their name, and is mature enough to understand the implications, then the law allows for that. If its just a scorned woman doing it out of spite, then the law deals with that.
Jools, if this ever does come up, the first hint of a name change, go to Court. It is your right, and it is the law. If it bothers you, make an application. We may not like all of the laws which govern us, but we don't have a choice. The law is to be observed, and complied with.
Last word to Owl, L&H XX
Added By Owl1 on 01-12-2009
"For a mother to change a childs name, it is not the child's choice, it is to help the mother feel part of a new nuclear family, or alternatively, and how men tend to view it, as cutting the man out of the childs life."
I think that sums up the underlying views and reasons Simes, except the mother will present and project her need to "be a nuclear family" as the child's need not to feel excluded from the newly formed nuclear family by having a differing name to the other family members.
I also suspect that at the root of Jools disquiet and alarm about this will be that he feels it as one more sign he is being excluded from his daughters life and I imagine that that feeling is very painful and hard to deal with. I feel for him in that regard.
Whatever the reasons, the law in coming to a decision considers not the parents rights but the needs of the child and I have seen such name changes approved in the interests of the child. I'm not sure if thats right but each case turns on its own merits.
Simes my point is even if Jools does go to Court and gets a ruling in his favour for no name change, the practical reality is that a child will often be called and known as the alternative non-legal name anyway. Its the advice we always give to people before they put their money in their pockets to take action.
I'm not sure if a name change ruling unduly harms the child, although it will cause great offence to one or either of the parents. Children as adults tend to make their own choices on the name they wish to be known by and take action accordingly.
Then of course you get the compromise solution to keep all parties happy and not feeling aggrieved, the hyphenated-double-barrelled names that often sound ridiculous as the parents names sound incongrous together. Now that may cure the parents sense of aggrievement but what a thing to inflict on their poor kids!!!
But there are a lot of permutations to this. Thinking about it the surname I am known by is not one I am connected by bloodlines to as it is my ex-husband's surname. I have had it for nearly 25 years now but have always felt a deep connection to my own family heritage despite no longer having a name that is linked to it. So I am called X for convenience but don't feel an X as I know I am a Y and feel passionately about that. I also feel passionate about being a Z ( my mother's family name) but have never once borne that name. My mother was able to instill that in me and I have done the same for my kids. Of course as men don't tend to change their surnames ever in the course of a lifetime they can't know first hand how very little impact it has on how you feel on the inside about your identity and who you are.
Maybe the answer for agrrieved parents who are worried about name changes and the impact they may have on their child is to focus on sharing their family heritage with their children and educating them about that rather than playing this out through the Courts. It is an alternative to at least think about.
Added By Stuart on 01-12-2009
LOL....I think you have missed the point TD...
This thread is about mum changing the childs name to suit her own desires which are more than likely to help eradicate jools from his daughters life just a little bit more...
THATS where the ownership bit comes in....
Added By Teadrinker on 01-12-2009
Stuart, you've just made up the reason why the mother might change the child's name. In fact if you read Jool's first post, his concerns are based on his daughter having "implied" that her mum intended to remarry and change her and her d's surname to the new partner's. But you have decided that she's doing it to "help eradicate Jools from his d's life just a little bit more" when in reality we have no idea if or why she might do it.
Owl, I find it hard to believe that men want their child to have their surname out of fear that they may not be the biological father. Especially as any father with doubts can have a DNA test done. I think it's more likely that men just follow a tradition which comes from a time when a wife was her h's property and the kids were his kids and she was a second class citizen. People often follow things which they think of as the norm and say something ought to be a certain way even though they can't offer a valid explanation of why it ought to be.
In modern times it seems to me that a man insisting that the children must have his surname (I mean at birth rather than in circumstances where someone's talking about changing the surname) and who thinks no other option should be considered is just being sexist.
Added By Teadrinker on 01-12-2009
Sorry, pressed Send too soon.
Stuart, the men who insist that any children they father must have their surname from birth are "taking ownership" and treating the child as theirs alone, just like the mothers who try to cut the fathers out of the child's life.
Added By Jools123 on 01-12-2009
TD - to be honest, my ex would try and change daughters name for two reasons. Because she hates me and any opportunity she has to distance my daughter from me she will take and to try and make my daughter look on her partner as her father (so to distance me again). After all, my ex has already got my daughter saying daddy Gareth about ex's partner of less than 1 year. Unfortunately we have to correct my daughter and tell her that she only has one daddy!
So Stuart in my opinion is spot on with the reasons my ex would change the name.
Added By evr on 01-12-2009
I don't get this. Didn't you say your daughter doesn't have your name in any case? And that is because you left during the pregnancy, even though you hadn't divorced at that point. It seems to me that you are allocating blame just as much as your ex wife. She will of course see things different from you if you left her when she was pregnant with her first child. You don't say the circumstances, but you say you 'split up' when she was pregnant and she has told your daughter that you hurt her when she was pregnant, so already there seems to be a different take on what happened.
If you did leave when she was pregnant, then yes, it will be difficult for her to forgive. If you had stayed then you would have been present at the birth of your child and available to register the birth, but you weren't. Men on here are saying that it is the father's right to name their child after them, but I don't see why. Why should a woman have to keep the name of someone who has left her, and why should her child have to take the name of that person as well? Really, it is just labels. She is your daughter and your ex-wife's jointly. Doesn't matter if she's called Ebenezer, nothing changes that fact.
Added By Jools123 on 01-12-2009
EVR - I don't want my daughter being named after another man. Surely that's simple to understand. I'm not allocating blame just saying that my ex hates me.
Added By Suvla1915 on 01-12-2009
My brother in law left his wife when his two children were very young. When she met another man and had another child all three children took the surname of the new man. The children all wanted the same surname. Brother in law didn't make a fuss, didn't consider it a big issue, altho' father in law was upset.
Since then, the ex wife has left new man and children have grown up. His daughetr has reverted to her father's surname, the son has kept surname of ex- new man.
They both are still very much their father's children and always will be, name or no name.
I understand your feelings, but as your daughter deosn't have your surname now, it seems even less of an issue.
Added By Jools123 on 01-12-2009
Hi Suvla - this new man has no biological tie to my daughter and hence why I'd prefer to not have his name. The example you raise is one good reason, they could split years down the line and my daughter doesnt have her mum or dads surname. Seems ludicrous to me.
Added By evr on 01-12-2009
But Jools, she will have her mum's surname, because your ex will take her new partner's name
Added By Suvla1915 on 01-12-2009
My niece (ex-niece?) has her father's surname, my nephew has the surname of his mother's ex-partner. Both are happy with the name they choose to use, both have the same relationship with their father, regardless of their name, that was my point.
Added By Owl1 on 02-12-2009
Jools I wouldn't worry too much about correcting your daughter when she says "daddy gareth" or pointing out that she only has one daddy.
The reality is that it looks like your daughter will have two father figures in her life going forward. That is not necessarily a negative thing for her although you may find it hard to cope with. Having extra people in her life that can care about and for her and that she can care for and about does not per se detract for your position as her biological and social father and can greatly enhance her life.
My sister's marriage blew to bits not long after her eldest son was born. Her son continued to have contact with his father. When he was 6 my sister began a new relationship with her now partner. We noticed that not long after the relationship began my nephew stared calling this man Dad. He did this of his own accord and initially my sister discouraged it but eventually they just left him to call her partner what he wanted. Now my nephew knows the man he calls Dad is not his biological father but he also knows that the role that man plays in his life is that of a social father and he is grateful for that. He also calls his biological father Dad and although he doesn't see him often ( Dad's choice) he is always pleased to see him when he does. This causes no confusion for my nephew and he will refer to each of them as his John Dad and his Tony Dad only if he needs to clarify to us who he is talking about. Most of the time he just talks about Dad when referring to either /or of them. The irony of that is that all his cousins , that is my and my sisters children call their biological Dad's whom they grew up in the same family unit by their first name and don't as a rule call them Dad. So at Christmas dinner the only person being referred to as Dad is the non-biological Dad. As Evr says its all just labels.
Jools I can understand your fears about being excluded from your daughters life now that a new father figure has come into her life. I can understand you feeling threatened by that. But isn't it great that your daughter feels comfortable enough around you to openly call this man "daddy gareth" in front of you . She shares none of your hang-ups around this issue, she is just stating the reality of her life as it emerges as a consequence of being born parents who were separated before her birth. It was always extremely likely that you and her mother would find new partners and she would grow up with reconstituted families including step parents, new siblings and maybe step-siblings too.
Now you are confronting that reality and experiencing the impact it has on you and it is unsettling and it is arousing fears and insecurities about your relationship with her daughter. It is likely to the source of your increased anxiety when you are apart too.
Its easy in this state of mind to come to the conclusion that your ex hates you and is doing all this to get at you and exclude you.
In reality she is just on the path to pursuing happiness and to feeling fulfilled. No doubt after single parenthood a nuclear family unit is appealing and something to cherish especially as she has felt the grief of the loss of the opportunity of that type of Family unit with you.
But focus on the relationship of your daughter and what is in her interests. Do you think she will be unduly worried about what name she is known by right now or for the years growing up? Do you think she is unduly worried about what she calls you or the man her mother intends to marry?
Only you can answer those questions I suppose.
Its hard Jools I know, but nothing said these things were ever going to be easy.
Added By Owl1 on 02-12-2009
And Jools to add to what you said to evr most women face the reality of their child being named after a man not them and life is sweet. Its not something that causes them any worry. Which is why they often don't understand what all the fuss is about.
I think in reality Jools this thing may on the surface be about the name but what really is at issue is your fears about this mans place in your daughter's life as compared to your place.
Added By Jools123 on 02-12-2009
Owl - of course and that's because I want to always know and have a special bond with my daughter regardless of the situation between her and her mum. What worries me is that given he is south african and their recent trip is that at some point they will attempt to move there and my relationship will be lost (I would obviously try and prevent that happening).
Okay, I'm looking on the bleak side but I am petrified of losing contact. She is my world and I want her to always know that.....
But selfishly I worry how I would cope without her.....
The implied tone is some responses is almost of 'get a grip' whats in a name....
Added By Owl1 on 02-12-2009
Jools, the reason for the "get a grip" whats in a name tone is that the name is not really what its about is it? Thats just how you are playing out your real underlying fears and uncertainties.
Of course a change of name will not make any difference to your 4 year old daughter. If someone had told me when I was 4 that I would now be known by a different surname I would have asked them to write it down so I could learn to write it and then that would have been the end of it. Its such a simple uncomplicated thing to a child.
But the reason its not simple for you is that it brings to the surface your underlying fears and uncertainties.
A thing that happens Jools when we are frightened of losing something or that fear is heightened by an event is that we go into a premature grieving process as we let our fears run away with us. We also experience the discomfort and effect of feeling a loss of control over our situation which can be frightening.
Your a bit at sea at the moment and I'd say the big factor in that is the threat that a new partner for your ex brings into the equation and the set up you currently enjoy with your daughter. Things are not as certain as they were.
So as soon as you hear the words 'daddy gareth' or a hint of a possible name change, or contact is changed due to a trip to South Africa you react and then go into a bit of a spin and imagine the worst case scenario. Then you experience heightened feelings of pain you describe when you are not with your daughter that leave you a bit paralysed.
I can't say how its going to pan out, but you do know what your fears are. Try not to let those fears distort things. Your daughter is your world, well no your daughter is part of your world, there are a lot of others in that world too. Your ex is only doing what she is to hurt you, thats another distortion fuelled by your fears. Your ex is doing what she is doing because she wants to build a life and future for herself and that includes living with the man she loves as a family. What person doesn't want that, particularly when they are young? Its what you have after all.
None of this is easy for you I know, when I was in a similar situation I felt suicidal but that was because I let my fears take control.
Added By Stuart on 02-12-2009
Oh dear Jools.....you and your ex split during the pregancy so you really are an evil bastard and oh yes, of course mum has every right to remove you from your daughters life.....
Sorry Jools, but some people are totally unable to bring remember that children are flesh and blood and have needs and feelings too.
No, instead they child is seen as a weapon with which to hurt the NRP, and a bloody potent weapon they are too.
So what if you and your ex split during pregnancy? The reasons are totally irrelevant. All that matters is that your daughter has good meaningful contact with you and that you remain in her life and NOT as a person on the sidelines.
Causing a child to suddenly call a new partner "mum" or "dad" is simply a way to hurt the NRP. There is no other reason for it and the PWC allowing it is an arse.
Sadly you arent going to get much help here with this issue.
It appears that on this thread the general opinion is that you are making something from nothing. You only have to read Owls bit about you having a hang up about it all.
Owl, you said "Jools I can understand your fears about being excluded from your daughters life now that a new father figure has come into her life. I can understand you feeling threatened by that. But isn't it great that your daughter feels comfortable enough around you to openly call this man "daddy gareth" in front of you . "
I seriously doubt you could understand it at all. Dont you live thousands of miles away from your children through choice?
Jools, you need to get some legal advice on this. I am 100% behind you. I know what its like to have someone try and erode my relationship with my child simply because of hatred of me.
The best of luck.
Added By Owl1 on 02-12-2009
Stuart, I live with one of my children, live close to another and my son lives in a different country. That was not my choice but his fathers( he faced Hague Convention proceedings). My ex lives thousands of miles away from 2 of his children by choice and has little contact with those children ( one none at all as they are effectively estranged). he moved away without telling or consulting those children and has not seen them in 4 years not made any effort to see them. I have regular contact with all my children and have visited my son one and he has visted here twice. ( all at my expense)
I can understand Jools fears about being excluded from his daughters life as I have faced those fears and as I said above have felt suicidal at the time I faced those fears.
You have faced nothing like what I have faced.
A parent may feel hurt about a np being called Mum or Dad but that does not automatically mean it is done to hurt. You may react by feeling hurt about that Stuart but thats your issue.
Jools has not been removed from his daughters life, he has regular contact. He removed himself from his mother's life prior to his daughter being born. No doubt he had reasons for that but the consequence of that is that it was highly likely that his then wife would meet someone else remarry and that that person would have a significant hand in raising his child. I don't think thats an easy thing for him to face and I don't think any of this is easy for him.
Deal with the facts Stuart, not speculation
Added By Owl1 on 02-12-2009
He removed himself from his mother's life prior to his daughter being born, should be he removed himself from "her " mothers life.
Added By Jools123 on 02-12-2009
Interesting Owl - you state that I removed myself from my ex's life. Where did I say that? I don't believe I ever mentioned the circumstances - that's an assumption surely?
Added By Owl1 on 02-12-2009
Jools I am not making any assumptions as I don't know the circumstances of why you and your ex split up before your daughter was born. However whatever the circumstances you will at one level have made a decision that the relationship could not continue.
That has had an impact for all concerned. In particular the type of parenting and family arrangements that have eventuated for all 3 of you.
Added By Jools123 on 02-12-2009
you have actually (see below) - but hey this has gone totally off track as I find most threads do on here after a while
He removed himself from his mother's life prior to his daughter being born, should be he removed himself from "her " mothers life.
Added By evr on 02-12-2009
I agree with Owl. Whatever the circumstances you did remove yourself. You said yourself you split up during the pregnancy.
What I don't understand is why its such a strong belief that a child should bear their father's name, but its totally unreasonable for them to have their mother's name. As has been said, they are not totally one parent's child.
That may well be beyond my understanding, but what is perhaps beyond your understanding is how emotions are affected by a divorce when you are expecting your first child. Funny how people are expected to be reasonable even when they have been hurt badly, citing the needs of the child. Surely if parents were considering first and foremost the needs of the child they would at least stay together until it was born!
Added By Jools123 on 02-12-2009
evr - you really do seem to get the wrong end of the stick...I can read most posts and extract some beneficial information but yours are just way off the mark...
I'm not going into the circumstances (as much as you might like the detail) but how do you know I left? Please give me factual evidence. Whats to say my ex didn't leave me? And the important point as Stuart noted is not the past but the future and maintaining that relationship.
I have not pursued changing my child's name from her mums and decided that was one lesser battle to fight, as gaining contact was my priority. If you actually read the thread rather than assuming you will realise that my objection is to my daughter having a surname that neither relates to her mum or dad.
No, I understand that divorce affects people badly. Both parties in fact. I am still coming to terms with mine. What I cant understand is using a child as a bargaining tool or making small comments to try and manipulate the situation.
Added By Jools123 on 02-12-2009
wtf - I've re-read this and realised I'm getting drawn into bickering. That's the last post from me on this matter.
Added By evr on 02-12-2009
The marriage broke up Jools, so you must have left it. If it makes it clearer to comprehend, you both left it, thats what happens in a split surely. If you don't want to talk about the circumstances thats up to you of course, although I have to say most people are only too willing to point out that their exes abandoned them if that is what happened. The only conclusions I am coming to are those that you have put - that according to you you and your wife split up, and according to your ex wife, you upset her when she was pregnant.
I repeat, your daughter will have a surname that relates to one of her parents, because her mother is planning to marry and presumably take her partner's name. So she and your daughter will have the same surname. I don't have a surname that relates to either of my biological parents, neither does my sister, my great nieces or several other relatives or friends. Women traditionally take other people's names. I don't see why its so difficult to accept that this can also happen to men.
Added By Owl1 on 02-12-2009
Jools I have no need to know the circumstances of your split and don't expect you to post the details. Its not particularly relevant to your circumstances now which is about your reaction to a np for your ex and how that may impact on your relationship with your daughter.
I probably assume that you were not abandoned as most people who have been are usually more than happy to post that as evr says. Also your ex was hurt by you when she was pregnant, a statement she made to your daughter obviously in response to questioning why she didn't like you. Thats probably a pretty up front and honest answer on the part of your ex to your daughter and not one you should be unduly concerned about. Its likely a statement of fact on the part of your ex, she will know whether she felt hurt by your actions. She can feel that way.
I can't see where your ex is using your child as a bargaining tool or making small comments to manipulate the situation. She may be making comments to your child to explain her feelings and the relationship she has with you but your child still is happy to see you and enjoys her time with you. Focus on that.
Added By sometimesitdoesn'twork on 03-12-2009
Changing a child surname is always contentious because some people can invest a lot of emotion in it. However, the welfare of children is of paramount importance, not the competing parents' views. It is generally accepted children's security and established bonds shouldn't be disrupted unless there are exceptional circumstances and in order to justify changing the name from that which was registered circumstances justifying the change are required.
Rightly or wrongly the courts have taken the view that the status of a mother's child could never be in question when she has the majority of care. Awareness of being a father's child was likely to be maintained by contact and the *continued* use of the father's surname helps to support the relationship between the child.
Jools if you can find it look at the House of Lords ruling in the case of Dawson v Wearmouth. The father was unmarried but there are some similarities - the child was registered unilaterally not using the father's surname and the mother wanted to change the name to that of her new husband. There is a distinction between married and unmarried fathers and it identifies some basic principals in practice, although every case is different. Choose your battles carefully, good contact for children relies on parents developing a working relationship which can be damaged or further damaged and going to court tends to make that impossible.
Added By Stuart on 03-12-2009
Jools, I dont blame you for withdrawing from this thread.
Yes an assumption of your breakup circumstances was made and it has nothing to do with anyone.
I think the assumption is that you left your wife for someone else during pregnancy.
This would be perfect for some here as this would somehow lend weight to the argument that you deserve everything that you get.
Of course thats a crap notion and whats important is that you are able to see your daughter and that mum doesnt simply change things willy nilly.
The argument about women taking a mans name upon marriage etc is a complete smoke screen IMO.
When a woman takes a mans name she is doing it by consent. No-one is forcing her as far as Im aware.
Likewise when you and your ex decided upon your daughters surname it was a joint decision.
Now of course mum has decided that she wants to play happy families and change your daughters name.
What I fail to understand is why a man is so willing to pretend a child is his own when clearly there is already a dad on the scene.....
Added By Stuart on 03-12-2009
Oh...meant to say, good advice from STIDW....
Added By Owl1 on 03-12-2009
Stuart who made the assumption Jools left his wife for someone else whilst she was pregnant. I didn't, in fact that didn't even occur to me. And who has introduced the notion into this thread that Jools deserves everything he gets. You I think just then.
Actually Stuart naming his daughter was not a joint decision for Jools , it was his ex's sole decision and he chose not to object then. So he is fine with his child's mother making unilateral decisions about that, just objects to his child having another man's name.
Having a child with a name the same as you does not mean you are pretending the child is yours. However are you now telling us that insisting a child has your name is about claiming ownership of that child? Is that your objection? Is that what you think a child having your name means? Is that why it is important for you that your son has your name?
Some of us find that insistence curious Stuart, thats all as we are not bothered about our children having our names.
Added By why? on 03-12-2009
i think that to change a childs name as your own circumstances change is one thing. i can understand that there will be circumstamnces where that is relevant and correct and there will be good reasons which will in fact be in the best interests of the child.
in jools situation i do not believe it is correct or in the childs best interests. the child has a dad. there is no need to call anyone else dad first of all. the man has a name after all, why cant she call him by his name. especially as many 2nd marriages fail, how many men will the child call dad. how terribly confusing and must certain sense of 'who am i'.
regarding the name. i dont think her name should be changed from her mums name. in fact, in your ex's circumstances i personally would rather keep the same name as my daughter than change my daughters name, but thats me. i think some basic fundamental sense of person is important. its not just a name. for me, my name is not just a name. its who iam, where i come from. i changed to h's name on marriage just because it was traditional but a part of me didn't want to because my name was my name but i did.
i found myself hating for a while that the children have h's name simply because he is such a vile disgusting deceitful underhand man and for me i didn't want them to have that name but had to accept that it was their name and would not be in their interests to change it. h told me he wants me to change my name back which is typical of h but strangely enough he didn't realise how much i hated having his name at the time he said this and actually wanted to change it back. however, i then had to accept that if it had to be good enough for my children then it had to be good enough for me so ive kept it. mind you im not divorced yet.
what i did do however is start using their middle names in every day labelling of clothes and books and bags etc and insisting it was on any achievements like reports and certificates in school. all my children share the same middle name which happens to be my maiden name. ive not changed their name legally and they are still referred to verbally by their first and surname only but they see their middle name used frequently and brings the 'family unification' a bit closer. because their middle name was there from birth it has always been on their birth certificate, ive simply started using it more so they grow up recognising my name as part of who they are because they are part of me and i think with regards family history etc it is important.
i didn't want h's name but i didn't want a different name from my children so i then started using my maiden name as a middle name, exactly as my children have so they share the exact same name as me but not their dad. ironic given that he wanted me excluded from their name and now it is him who is excluded but that wasn't why i did it. the children are 'ours' so they have 'our' names.
despite jools not having the same name at birth i can fully understand him not wanting another mans name attached to the child. i think his daughter would be better to keep her mums name at least as this is what she knows, no one her mum marries will ever be 'part' of her and she will at least understand why she has the name she has, because 1) it is her name and always has been and 2) because its her mums name.
Added By Stuart on 04-12-2009
Owl, have you got the hots for me or something?
You seem to be putting in extra effort to reply to anything I say these days..Im deeply touched but Im sorry darling it just wouldnt work ;) x
Jools, I dont think you have any option but to wait and see what mum does next and the base your decision on that.
I wish you luck.
Added By Owl1 on 04-12-2009
lol Stuart, rest assured you are definitely not my type.
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