ONDIVORCE GENERAL AND CONTACT MESSAGEBOARD
[ADD YOUR COMMENTS] [LIST ALL SUBJECTS]
Subject: update
Posted By obiwan_kenobi_again on 03-12-2009
text from the X... 'you are not having the boys this year for xmas...'
she has decided to take them to the snowdome!
I will have them for this weekend then nothing until jan 6th...
ah well... i suppose I've brought it on myself eh Owl?
Follow up comments
Added By Jools123 on 04-12-2009
Obi - I'm really sorry to hear this. I don't quite know your situation but do you have a court order. Can you get a solicitors letter to her?
How old are your boys?
I've recently had a break through with a similar situation and managed to get extended contact albeit still missing the Christmas week.
Added By Kat007 on 04-12-2009
Sorry DarthX has done what,
was your xmas contact with the boy's already agreed and in the court order to alternate xmas's if so breach breach breach sink her sub and haul her back in court Obi, She is such a F***ing control freak clearly she does not understand that it is the boy's who get hurt in all this mess. I am so fed up with fathers (including my ex)and mother's playing god over who has the kids at Xmas, it should be alternate so unfair. Bit of a dream but it should be for the kids sakes.
And what about taking them to Snowdome where is that in the UK if so take them another day on her contact time not your's she really is something your ex. Sorry to rant but She annoys me and I don't even know her. This is horrible using the boy's to get at you, Mine does the same what is wrong. Ok be angry at your' ex's if you must but kids as pawns/weapons is so F***king damaging those poor lads.
Fight for it Obi don't give up and this really isn't your fault so please stop blaming yourself and stop goading Owl you devil. Fight please for your boys.
Love and hugs to you xxxx
Added By Owl1 on 04-12-2009
Obi, its simple really isn't it.
You have an order re Contact.
What does the Contact order say re this Christmas?
If it says that the boys spend Christmas with you then your ex is breaching the order and you know the process to deal with that.
If the Order says this Christmas with her, then thats how it is, you knew that and she can take the boys to Snowdome if she chooses.
I thought you were going to head to Court this year and get it all sorted. It seems you haven't done that.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 04-12-2009
order says- that basically the xmas holiday is in two parts: from the end of school to the 24th and 24 dec- 02nd jan...
last year i had 24-02...
this year i should have 18-24...
the boys are VERY upset. they want to come to mine...
I wont bother with court- what's the point- she don't obey the order anyway...
I am already paying off a 30k loan for the last court battle...
I need to think of an alternative way to deal with her.
I think being nice has failed.
Its time to try being not-nice...
Kat- she don't think about anything except her need to destroy me. Its 5-years now since I walked out- she still blames my new partner and tells the boys i left to live with her- the boys tell her that i was in a caravan- one has shown her the photos...
its never going to be over until one of us dies.
its just that simple- what else is there?
Added By Owl1 on 05-12-2009
Obi, if the order says you have the boys from 18th to the 24th then over here you would put in an urgent application to Court now and the matter would be heard and determined in the next week.
If the boys are VERY upset the Court will look at the order, consider the boys wishes and its clear what the decision will be.
None of that has to cost you a fortune, you can do that yourself. Simes can probably put you in touch with a Mckenzie friend to support you.
Or you can do as you are choosing and leave things as they stand. If you feel comfortable with the that despite the fact that your sons are VERY upset then you will do that.
It will be over when your lads grow up and get their own lives independent of you and her Obi. That time will come soon enough.
In the meantime I hope by not being nice I hope you don't mean that you are going to manipulate the situation and your sons to get at your ex. You don't have to deal with her, you just have to love and be a good Dad to your sons.
I'm not sure why you are so worried about your ex telling your sons that you left her to live with your np. She probably genuinely believes that you did but that is of little consequence. Your sons know that you went to live in a caravan. Even them showing photos of where you lived at the time will not change her view that you were involved with your np and that is why you left.
The point is what does it matter what she believes. You know the truth, you know you were neither involved with nor living with another woman or your np at the time. All you need to tell your sons is the truth as you know it and move on. They don't seek to judge you Obi, so what are you frightened of or worried about?
Anyway do the boys want to go to Snowdome prior to Christmas day or do they want to spend the period prior to Christmas day at yours instead? You will know the answer to that question.
Added By Kat007 on 05-12-2009
I know right now it seems taking the higher ground is futile but in doing so you will always be able to say to youreself I did everything I could for my boys.
Owl is correct here get an application in to court asap represent yourself this is far too important to give up obi. Give in now and Darth X has you over a barrel and the two that get really hurt are your lovely boy's come were that fighting spirit gone. Please you are supposed to have the boy's from school at the end of term then that is what you should fight for. Get those gloves back on.
And Darth will tell the boy's loadsa crap just don't get caught up in her silly childish games. Please don't let this drop for those lovely boy's sakes and your's and your partners I am sure that she would love to have early christmas with them as would you. Come on keep going. Speak with simes he can help find a mckenzie friend if you need support in court. please.
Begging sorry I just know this is so important to you and to your son's.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 05-12-2009
I dont think i could ask simes- he thinks i am an asshole.
besides- i have conducted my own case on three court attends - and i think i did ok... more to the point- i saved 2-3k...
i am not sure i can afford it this side of xmas- not if i want to eat.
I am tired of making it work for the boys- really tired- i will point out the error in her thinking- record that- then take her to court.
she can then explain that- even when she knew it was wrong -she still did it.
taking to court for a breach is a waste of time and money- they wont DO anything to her!!!
prison? nope...
fine? nope...
do you think she gives a funk what they think?
who will get the costs? me.... in effect I will be fined for taking her to court...
no thanks.
the boys are very upset- i cant change that- its not my fault... its her. I wont take responsibility for her bad behaviour- I wont seek to correct it...
whats the point? she wont change- EVER!
I dont feel comfortable- but as i say- i dont have any viable avenues- she knows this...
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 05-12-2009
we live month to month...
200 quid is the diff between roof-and no roof...
i may be able to afford it jan ( xmas overtime- working xmas day and boxing day).
That is my only avenue...
I will take to court to apply for more time and clear up ambiguous order... based on this breach- thats worth it...
getting her to court for a finger wag off a judge isnt...
Added By Owl1 on 05-12-2009
Well do it this time Obi, don't just talk about it. You were going to do this after last Christmas but didn't.
I don't think the Order is that ambiguous as you have stated it on here. Although last Christmas I seem to remember you complained that on reading it properly you should have had the boys for the whole Christmas break not just the second half. In fact you said you had mis-read the Order and you felt stupid about that.
Presumably the Order has not changed so maybe she is taking that interpretation?
Anyway if it confused you last Christmas I am not sure why you have let the ambiguity stay to cause confusion this Christmas.
I'm sure Obi you could economise to find 200 quid. I doubt it really is the difference between you and your partner paying your mortgage and being kicked out of your home as a result. Perhaps cut back on Christmas presents this year to meet the cost.
But I agree with you, its not your role to correct her behaviour. Thats not the responsibility of a spouse or an ex spouse. It was never your role, that you thought it was is where you were and are misguided.
Added By Owl1 on 05-12-2009
And I think you are missing the point of why you are going to Court Obi.
You are going to Court to stop a potential breach as you believe that the breach is not in the best interests of your boys, not to punish your ex.
Focus on the boys needs not your need to have someone tell her off to make you feel better.
Then you might get to the solution that meets THEIR hurt feelings not your own
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 05-12-2009
gee thanks mom...
we have cut back - but at the moment its hard to get to the end of the month- let alone spend hundreds of pounds on something with no value i.e. a finger wag off the judge- and she could still refuse to 'allow' them to come...
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 05-12-2009
err... my role to correct her behave?
never thought that...
my role to protect myself from being thumped and abused everyday? yup.
Added By Owl1 on 05-12-2009
Obi, the value is that you have a chance to get the increased contact for your boys they apparently crave and that you think is in their interests.
However it seems you have made your choice about that and the boys are now spending from 18 Dec to 2 Jan with their Mum doing the stuff she has planned for them.
Given the apparent ambiguity of the order its just a shame you did not address this earlier in the year when you said you were going to.
However if you think going to Court is a waste of time based on the fact that she can refuse to "allow" them to come on your contact time them maybe you should not bother.
How many other contact times has she refused to "allow" them to come this year. You have said that you have missed out on a few contact weekends. Is that due to her not allowing them to come or your lack of availability on those weekends due to your new shift pattern?
Added By Simes 2p on 05-12-2009
Oscar Bravo,
'I dont think i could ask simes- he thinks i am an asshole.'
I help assholes too. If you need to find a McKenzie I can put you in touch with one, or if you want to do it yourself I would happily discuss it with you and give you the 'benefit of my experience', completely free of charge, even though you are an asshole.
If you spent £30K to get an order which you then don't bother enforcing, then asshole is not the right description really.
If you think that she will get a finger wag and still breach the order, then I pity the way you have wasted such a large amount of money for nothing.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 06-12-2009
simes- for me 'enforcing' a civil order is a WASTE OF TIME...
what will happen?
prison? fine? tardis like time manipulation to give the boys the time back?
unpaid work? taking the boys from her and giving them to me?
or
'mrs ford- whilst you have denied contact, without real justification, it is clear that you have some lack of understanding about the wording of the order- no doubt due to English being your 2nd language. In that case Mr Ford I have enlightened Mrs Ford to the actual meaning of the order. Anyway I'm off the golf... etc...'
mmmm... BIG maths in that one...
because of that- I think I am forced into cancelling next years hols and using the money to change the order.
owl- because she did not 'allow' them to come...
look- its simple... I hurt her- now she is going to hurt me. For ever. When my ex hates- she hates... the current standings are: dad- hated for 25 years - me 13 years...
Pity simes? its the court that have allowed this... society that has allowed this...
If i had known then - what i know now- i would have stayed... and took my chances...
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 06-12-2009
I know you mean well- and i am not upset with any of you -really...
I can see now why Fathers for Justice came into being: a failure of courts and gov- to listen to the people that matter- children and parents.
I know I can take her to court before- if i am lucky with the dates etc...
however- i just cant afford it. If i could i would. Period. £200 to me now (just for the paperwork)
hang on... i have just thought of something... I will contact you all when I have sorted it out...
ttfn
Added By sometimesitdoesn'twork on 06-12-2009
F4J is disbanded. Too many bigots within brought it down apparently.
When was your order dated? If it was before 8 December 2008 you could apply for a warning notice to be attached to the order. The cost I think is £40. That might fire a warning shot to your ex and in many cases people are reporting the courts are taking the opportunity to review the orders.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 06-12-2009
simes- here is the exact wording: how do you interpret it please?
'for one week each school Christmas Holiday, and in alternate years it shall be from 5.00pm on 24 December to 2 January, but for the purposes of Christmas 2006 contact shall be from 5.00 24 December 2006 to 5.00 pm January 2007'.
now i see that as one year ex gets 18 dec (school hols start) to 24 dec at 5.00 - then I get them 24 dec to 2 jan... then the next year- i get 18- 24 Dec and she gets 24- 02 jan...
the key word being- EACH school...
now if you agree - I will find the money and get her to court to get the judge to explain it to her...
if not- I will get her to court anyway - and go for more contact...as they keep asking for more...
this weekend they have asked for contact every weekend...
Added By Owl1 on 06-12-2009
Obi If you seek to enforce a civil order, the result is just that it gets enforced and you get to get what the order says.
Civil courts are not their as a public punishment. You confuse them too readily with the criminal courts.
I agree the wording a the order is amibiguous, thats the fault of its drafter.(your sol no doubt) I am a sol, speak english as a first language and interpret words for a living and I think its poorly drafted. You yourself thought it was ambiguous last year. As I understand it your ex also got the permission of the Court to take the boys to Poland for the whole Christmas break in Christmas 2007, notwithstanding what the order actually said and a prohibited steps order being in place. So getting the order varied can be done.
All you can do is take the matter back to Court, it doesn't have to cost you truckloads. If you CHOOSE to cancel the family holiday thats your choice, no one is FORCING you to do that. Take responsibility for your own choices and stop blaming.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 06-12-2009
i heard FFJ was kaput... I guess they just ran out of steam...actually they were sued over an email - this allegation has been withdrawn now... anyway...
good idea- wrong people.
i am all for direct action- as long as its tempered with common sense.
i think its not easy for people not in the position of some dads and mums that have this constant and seemingly never ending battle with thier exs... as i have.
its impossible to plan for anything- you never know when X is going to say 'NO' or NIET etc...
its hardest on the boys of course - if i am not sucessful then i wont see them for a month...
justice?
i dont think it is...
Added By Owl1 on 06-12-2009
So it looks like you are going to go ahead and apply to have the order interpreted and enforced then Obi.
Thats good to hear that you are doing something constructive.
It seems that your ex has been successful in using the Court to support her plans, you were not that supportive of that and sought to oppose initially i.e her trip to Poland one Christmas with the boys, you were not that supportive of that and sought to oppose initially, but when it became obvious that the Court would support it you acquiesed. There is no reason why you can't be successful too in convincing the Court something will be in the boys best interests.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 06-12-2009
law without enforcement or consequences is useless.
I would say that that is one of the main problems with this system- and criminal law too.
If judges were to say, 'ok Mr/Mrs Resident parent- you were told to hand over junior- you didnt so here is 100-hours of community punishment. If you do it again, the kids will be living with NRP....
I suspect that the amount of RPs that played silly buggers would drop to zero overnight...
fat chance... in 20-years I have only met a hand-full of judges with big enough cojones to actually meter out justice.
For your info owl- I was supportive of the Christmas trip to Poland- the order wasn't though... the only reason I didnt take her to court- was she changed her mind when she knew I was going to breach her...
The PSO has been removed- yes- but replaced with an equally restrictive foreign travel section.
Oh and nobody is FORCING me - in the same way nobody FORCED her to stop contact and BREACH the order.
I am not sure how 'for one week each school Christmas Holiday' can be interpreted in any other way than 'one week each xmas...'
but I guess that is my own perception.
What I find inexplicable is why she is doing it... yes, it's going to piss me off etc... but for young kids- not seeing a parent for a month and not having their xmas gifts is going to sting them in a tender spot.
Added By Owl1 on 07-12-2009
Obi young kids can cope without seeing a parent for one month or more. They can also cope without getting their Christmas parents on christmas day but if you are worried about that being a concerm to them you can have them sent by post. You miss seeing the surprise on their faces when they open them I suppose but that does not necessarily hurt them although it might affect you.
I didn't think there was an order in place when she stopped Contact Obi. I thought that was why you went to Court to get an order?
The reason the Courts do not have the power to hand out 100 hours of Community punsishment or to unilaterally order that the kids live with the NRP is that it is in the first instance contrary to natural justice. Everyone has a right to be heard before having a sentence imposed. And in the second instance the law as it relates to children says their views have to be considered before determining residency for a child
If you were supportive of the children going to Poland Obi why would you take her to Court and breach her for not following the Order? Thats incredibly contradictory. All you had to do was agree if you were supportive.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 07-12-2009
cope? mmm... deal with- more like.
Like they have a choice?
That's the rub eh owl? the DONT HAVE A CHOICE!!! they have to deal...
natural justice? ye gods owl you talk some tripe.
I think you are just too far in the left field for me owl...
Added By Owl1 on 07-12-2009
Obi, kids can be quite happy when separated from parents, its not a question of coping or dealing, they often just accept the situation and get on. These holidays they will spend with their mother. She will have things around Christmas planned for them which will keep them occupied and busy. They won't spend every waking minute pining for you and reflecting that they are having a miserable time.
You no doubt will spend every waking minute pining for them and reflecting that you are having a miserable time. You will no doubt do that even if your wonderful partner and supportive family paln special things for you.
Natural Justice is not left field Obi, its a fundamental concept of our legal system. Its a fundamental concept of all civilised and non-corrupt legal systems. As a sworn police officer you should know that.
Natural Justice in case the concept is really new to you means the right to be heard on a matter before being judged or an adverse decision being made about you.
If you think it tripe then that is concerning. And it is even more concerning that a sworn Police Officer thinks such an entrenched fundamental concept is tripe.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 07-12-2009
I think you miss the point a little... the kids (unlike me or ex) have little choice in what ACTUALLY happens... If they could choose- I dont think I would be posting on here very often -as they would be living with me- its what they tell me without prompting they want.
this is the real issue- its the control. She is still abusing me- just with different weapons...
Of course they get on with it- I do too... i dont sit around crying... i get on and have a full life- as much as i can without my sons...
There is NO NATURAL justice- its a contradiction in terms... and in any case if 'natural justice' were real- they would be with me.
As a person that actually uses and interprets the law on a practical level on a day to day basis- I dont have time for philosophical debates... i just do it.
or not...
and... what about strict liability offences?
you commit the offence - bang- you may have a mitigation... but as the little poem goes..
'there are no defenses to strict liability offences...'
breaching an order is a strict liability offence... the order says 'you will' you decide 'i wont' bing! offence complete...
of course you can have you hearing - but really... unless you have a great mitigation...
its like- parking on double yellows... if your car is on the lines- you commit the offence- period. You may have a great mitigation- you broke down etc- but no defence...
anyway- like we do on so many subject is suspect- we have to agree to disagree...
Added By Owl1 on 08-12-2009
Obi if your kids want to live with you and you are sure of that apply for Residency.
NATURAL JUSTICE is a legal term with a particular legal meaning. It means a "right to be heard" and it is that concept that I was referring to when I posted that term. Its a term we lawyers use and are familiar with. It goes to the heart of our common law justice system and is fundamental to its operation.
You are giving "natural justice" a laymans meaning and applying it to describe your belief that if you are in the right you will get the outcome you deserve and the person in the wrong will get the outcome they deserve. There is nothing wrong with holding that belief, but that was not the concept of natural justice that I was referring to.
In the UK there are no defences to strict liability Obi (not strictly the case here as our law has evolved slightly differently and we have three level of liability with Strict liability being in the middle). However strict liability applies to criminal and regulatory offences that are dealt with by the criminal courts. Breaching a civil order is a civil matter and different rules and law apply.
You apply criminal and regulatory law on a day to day basis. You do not apply civil law.
The law as it stands to Contact Orders is that when an order is breached the onus is on the aggrieved party to go to Court to get the Order enforced. The party against who they allege the breach has a right to be heard but the paramount consideration of the Court has always to be the interests of the child. So it remains for both parties to say that their desired outcome or action was and is in the best interests of the child.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 08-12-2009
are you sure you are a solicitor?
residency for a man!!! when the kids are 9 and 11!!! when the mum 'opposes' it!!!
as you say- 'Court has always to be the interests of the child. So it remains for both parties to say that their desired outcome or action was and is in the best interests of the child'
i have no chance. As i say owl- the system is VERY biased- against the NRP. I think that since most NRPS are men- this is the root of the F4J beef.
Added By Owl1 on 08-12-2009
Yep, I am quite sure I am a solicitor Obi.
I know of several men who have got residency ( or day to day care as we call it) by going through the Court system. Its not unheard of and its not that uncommon.
If kids of 9 and 11 say they would prefer to live with the father then the father has every chance of succeeding so long as the father shows he can provide for their care routines.
| 
