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Subject: if you have a min simes- please.
Posted By obiwan_kenobi_again on 07-12-2009
simes- here is the exact wording: how do you interpret it please?
'for one week each school Christmas Holiday, and in alternate years it shall be from 5.00pm on 24 December to 2 January, but for the purposes of Christmas 2006 contact shall be from 5.00 24 December 2006 to 5.00 pm January 2007'.
now i see that as one year ex gets 18 dec (school hols start) to 24 dec at 5.00 - then I get them 24 dec to 2 jan... then the next year- i get 18- 24 Dec and she gets 24- 02 jan...
the key word being- EACH school...
now if you agree - I will find the money and get her to court to get the judge to explain it to her...
if not- I will get her to court anyway - and go for more contact...as they keep asking for more...
this weekend they have asked for contact every weekend...
Follow up comments
Added By Simes 2p on 07-12-2009
Oscar Bravo,
The sentence doesn't make sense, and to have paid £30,000 to get that is not good value for money.
BUT, you will be pleased to know that the Courts work on the premise that at Xmas things to alternate. One week you, one week her. So if it landed on the Judges desk, he would be interpreting it that you share nicely.
HOWEVER, it is now the 7th December, and from experience your hearing will come up in January. I did have one on the 22nd or thereabouts one year. When you get there, even if it is before Xmas, she will be saying how her plans are arranged, she misunderstood but being on benefits and scraping the money together for the Snowdome, she can't afford to lose it, and besides, the boys are just SOOO excited.
You will have wasted your money.
Had you dealt with this earlier in the year, you would have Xmas, but being realistic about it, as Xmas is so close, you would be better spending the money on you and your partner and making the best of what you have.
And the Court are unlikely to give you every weekend, but what you can do is keep the boys as happy being with you as they clearly are.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 07-12-2009
thanks- better advise from you and court staff there than my brief.
Court girl said 'get an enforcement order in place- £80 quid and it will set the table should you decide to go ahead and breach... may wake her up a bit too...'
yes yes... like you said in may...
anyway thanks again...
Added By sometimesitdoesn'twork on 07-12-2009
Normally the papers have to be served for 21 days before a hearing for a s8 order can be held (FPR 1991).
Before you can apply for enforcement there must be warning notice attached to the order and contact orders issued since last December automatically have a warning notice . As I said on another thread judges are taking the opportunity when granting a warning notice to review the contact order so it is drawn in clear terms and that the parties are in no doubt how to comply with it and will be aware if they are in breach of it. Therefore I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss what you were told by the court official.
If you apply for a warning notice I think the fee is just £40, it would fire a warning shot and your order could be clarified. Then if your ex breaches the order again you can apply for enforcement and unlike most children cases it seems some judges in some areas are awarding costs when there is no reasonable excuse for the order having been broken.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 08-12-2009
its 80- but thank again- have form in my hand!
Added By sometimesitdoesn'twork on 08-12-2009
I've just checked and according to the fees list EX50 it is £40 for an application for a warning notice. Are you sure you have the correct form, C78? Statute doesn't permit contact orders to be enforced unless the person in breach received or was otherwise informed of the terms of a warning notice. See the leaflet CB5 available to download from HM Court Services.
Added By Simes 2p on 08-12-2009
STIDSY, sometimes the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. You can enforce a contact order without having the warning on it. I suggested it to someone last month and he successfully did it.
You and your rule book!
Also, forget the 21 days. (I thought it was 14). Due to Xmas, you can probably get an abridged hearing. 2 days is often allowed for those if time is of the essence.
Added By sometimesitdoesn'twork on 08-12-2009
Yes I know the left hand doesn't always know what the right hand is doing and many court officials, judges and lawyers haven't got to grips with it yet but it only takes a smart ar*se to point out the judge doesn't have the authority to make an enforcement order without a warning notice and you are snookered. Besides which it is cheaper to get the contact order reviewed with an application for a warning notice.
I know you can get an abridged service too but unless it is to preserve the status quo, prevent abduction or to order passports are handed over for a booked holiday etc as you said yourself it is unlikely to be heard before Christmas.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 08-12-2009
sidw dead on... its 40!!! the lady from court got the wrong form!
in the spirit of co-operation i have suggested a compromise- no reply of course...
i asked for three days- 26-27-28... and I would withdraw court action ...
I hope she does- i hate court.
Added By Owl1 on 08-12-2009
Obi as I understand it you had 24 December to 2 Jan last year so this year you would have been expecting yo have the boys 18 Dec to 24 Jan?
When is the planned trip to Snowdome happening? Does your above compromise dates factor in the dates for travel to it as if the kids can still go to Snowdome and see you it would be win win.
I think its good to reach a compromise this Christmas but you may still need to look at Court in the New Year to prevent this confusion happening next Christmas
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 09-12-2009
yes owl- well done- nice big told you so- well fcuking done- did i mention how smug you should feel? home run! strrrrrrike your out! congrats...
yes i should have done- foolish me thinking that my messages to her throughout the months of november and december would ot be rewarded by her booking a two day break...
two day break- thats all it is... she booked it last week.
no owl- this was just another control method- for the boys this time she can now say- 'that pig of a father - wanting to stop you going on holiday... etc...'
may i remind you that two days out of 14- leaves 12 days they could come?
I am not even asking for my full week - that is clearly stated in the order.
anyway- form filled in - money got- taking to court thursday...
owl- its not about winwin with her- its not about compromise- its about hate and revenge- nothing else matters- certainly not the boys feelings.
Added By Owl1 on 09-12-2009
Obi I don't feel at all smug.
I don't think you foolish either. I just think you have not given up on the hope that the two of you will happily reach agreement on something. Experience tells you differently but your wish and hope for things to be different overtakes that against all logic.
She does not want to be on amicable parenting terms with you. She will always keep things at arms length with you.
So are the days you have put forward as a compromise outside of the two day break?
Added By EnglishRose on 09-12-2009
There will come a point when these children are old enough to decide which parent they will spend all their time with once they get into teenage years. How old are they now? So this yeaer they are due to spend Christmas with their mother and next year with them.
Also what if they were put into private scools which get 3 weeks' holidays at Christmas or more? The order doesn't allow for that does it. It assumes all schools have 2 weeks' holiday only !!
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 10-12-2009
owl- yes they are... and she let slip that they are outside of the dates I should have too!
ER- 11 and 9...
It dont matter anymore guys- no1 son asked me not to take her to court - he was almost begging me... he really wants to go on hols...
so i wont...
no2 son almost had me in tears- he said 'i feel like you are pulling me one way and mum is pulling me another...'
i asked him what he wanted - he replied i want to stay with you... i would rather stay with you than go on hols with mum...
she wont allow that of course...
spiteful, hateful, fucked up - bitch.
anyway- head down - moving on...
Added By Owl1 on 10-12-2009
Good on you for listening to your kids Obi and meeting their needs.
No 1 son obviously wants to go on holiday and no2 so just wants to please everyone. He obviously hates being put in a position where he feels like he has to choose. Good on you for stepping aside and making the choice for him so he is not put in the uncomfortable position of disappointing one or other or both of his parents when that is the last thing he wants to do to either of you.
Its your call I suppose whether you pursue further contact. Court tends to level things out a bit. Kids may say they want to spend more time with you but when they are put on the spot and asked by Cafcass or the like they often stand back from that a bit and go back the other way.
If your sons are feeling pulled by your actions and reactions you may need to stop putting the pressure on them. It sounds like they are giving you a clear message they don't want more Court proceedings.
Added By Kat007 on 10-12-2009
Isn't this horrible when these poor kids are stuck right in the thick of things, I hate it. my child is being placed there again by my ex, We have court again soon for residency and I haven't told him his dad is taking me back to court I never do.
I feel so sorry for the kids when they get dragged in whether intentionally or not just need to let them be kids.
If you go for extra contact that is your choice and maybe wait until the new year. IIf this is what the kids want then ask cafcass to be involved so the boys can speak freely with out DarthX pushing all the buttons. I am proud of you Obi and Just make what time you get with your lovely lads the best ever as always. Much respect xx
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 10-12-2009
owl- no1 son has been bribed... with a holiday. No2 son doesnt respond well to bribes...
I wont use my kids as weapons- I would stop seeing them -period...
They arent giving me that message at all- no 2 son was asking me to do it! hitting me hard with logic like- 'dad, mum is naughty and when i am naughty- i get punished. Why doesnt mum get punished...'
me- err... ok... right... thats right son. However, there are times when punishment can make things worse - this is one of those times...'
no 1- son is like a panzer tank ... only heavy weapons dent him... no2 son is much more sensitive...
i spoke to the school today and they have BIG issues with ex...
she bribes them to read a book with money! quite a lot! £50 per book!!!
more worrying- the school suspect that no1 son my be being punished physically- he wont take off his coat etc...
I am not so sure- i see him in the nip when we swim etc... but she does use physical punishments - she did with me... she used to try to get me to hit him with a belt...
I will take my punishment like a good little boy and when the new year comes... i will try to sort out the order...
funny thing is... this year will see the same problems...
summer break- cant book because i dont get the dates i get them...
xmas- she will get her 18-24 (what i should have this year)...
she disgusts me.
Added By Owl1 on 11-12-2009
Yes no 1 son has no doubt been bribed ( or offered a holiday instead of spending time with you) but he still wants to go on holiday. He is making a choice, Holiday or spending time with Dad? Holiday wins hands down. Its tough on you but he will be happy.
I thought you said No 1 son practically begged you not to go to Court and no 2 son told you he didn't like feeling pulled by his mother or you?
Who told no 2 son his mother was naughty? Its a bit of a loaded thing to put out to a child. Did it per chance go something like. "Mum's just texted me to say you won't be coming to mine for the week prior to Xmas as she is taking you on holiday" She can't do that as she is breaching the order, I am going to go to Court and she will be told off"
All adult stuff the kids don't need to be involved in.
Why on earth would a school be worried about a parent bribing their children with money to read books? Schools themselves run incentive and reward programmes to get children to read books. Encouraging children to read books is not bribing, its actually good parenting.
If you or the school suspect your son is being physically punished then report it to the authorities. (as you are a policeman who used to work in child protection I can't believe I am telling you that).
I know school protocols here require reporting as soon as a child shows indicators of abuse.
However just ask your son has he been punished physically. Let him know the teachers at school have told you they are concerned that he does not take his coat off. Ask him why that is.
Thats effective parenting, building up a case in your head against your ex based on speculation but leaving it there as you are not sure is not.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 11-12-2009
or was it 'your father will not allow you to go on holiday and is taking me to the court- we will have no money... etc'
mmm... big maths...
just ask?
lol
never worked in child protection have you owl...?
leave the policing to the professionals eh?
Added By Owl1 on 11-12-2009
" or was it 'your father will not allow you to go on holiday and is taking me to the court- we will have no money... etc''"
Obi how does your ex wife know you were taking her to Court? I didn't think you had filed anything?
Aagh the text, asking for 3 days contact after Christmas. Obi if you send her threatening texts saying if you don't give me these days then I will take the matter to Court you aren't being very clever. You are just upping the ante of the dispute.
If you reacted in that manner you could have predicted the response. In fact had you filed Court proceedings you could have predicted the response. Thats because she has outsmarted you and booked a holiday that if you muck around with the boys are going to be sooo disappointed in missing.
However I doubt that your ex wife has put the idea into son no2's head that she is naughty and needs to be punished. I suspect thats something he has picked up from you. In fact your idea of needing to punish her like she is some naughty little child comes across as very patronising.
I have worked in the child welfare area actually Obi ( thats different to policing). One rule we had and one that is part of all school policies here is that if you suspect a child is being physically punished in an adverse way that is leaving physical injuries you don't discuss that directly with an adult that has some or all of the care of them ( which would include you). You talk to the professionals.
However if someone gave me the hint that one of my kids was being abused I'd talk to them directly about it and I'd also ask directly about the coat thing. I wouldn't being waiting for PC plod to come and do his job. You may of course get a shrug of the shoulders and an answer because its winter and its cold. Presumably your son refuses to get changed for games and sports at school also.
Added By obiwan_kenobi on 11-12-2009
how does she know? err... I told her that if she stopped access I would take her to court...
outsmarted? mmm... not really - outsmarted implies I have been defeated in some way- its the kids that have lost this one owl...
Also- read my post- the hol is OUTSIDE of the contact time!
The school spoke to me because the allegation is timed after my last contact- and since I wont now see them until the 9th of Jan (at least...) i am not involved...
How do i talk to the kids? see my last comment...
dont know about the last point...
look - she is wrong to to do what she is doing - plain and simple. The only reason I am not going to court is because of what my son had said.
the schools issues with her are many - not really my concern, you may cry... but it is a bit eh? they are my sons too... and i am involved.
I havent said anything to my son about naughty- he worked it out himself... smart kid. I think adults forget that when we make our rules that we should be the ones that obey them too- or the kids get the wrong message...
they see that ONCE again- she is being naughty and getting away with it.
she has no real care for the children, their feelings- only her own selfish need to revenge and control...
anyway - we need to agree to disagree on this one owl- she is well in the wrong - funny how you havent actually said that... i wonder why? if i had to guess its because you dont see anything wrong in what she does- and thats scary...
your comment - 'Its tough on you but he will be happy'
says a lot... the childrens happiness no matter how its obtained is right?
NO!!! that is just plain wrong... bribing kids with 00's of pounds is making a rod for your back and sending a morally dodgy message to the child...
these things are the product of a mind that is not functioning as a normal human beings should.
the poor girl has no real idea of how to parent or relate to other human beings...
patronising? err... can 9-year olds be patronising?
also- re the inference that i am patronising (and its me that have given son the idea) you know what i am thinking now eh owl...?
I have no choice re police- if i initiate ANY complaints- the 1st thing she will say is
'you are biased... you are doing this to spite me etc...'
i have to take a back seat unless i a m called...
Added By Owl1 on 11-12-2009
Obi, the kids have not been defeated, son no 1 is off on holiday and happy about it.
As I understood it your contact time this year is 18 Dec to 24 Jan. So when are the boys heading to Snowdome with their mother? In her week 24 Dec to 2 Jan? If you take her to Court for contact in the week you believe you should have and seek enforcement of that Contact son No1 will still get to go on his holiday if its enforced surely?
Has your son made an allegation to the school of abuse or are they just concluding that as he won't take off his jacket he must have been physically punished. Have they followed up on it and have they suggested who they think has physically punished him. Sometimes its bullying by other children.
If the school has so many concerns about her parenting ability why have they not acted?
Very strange terminolgy Obi, this being naughty, my kids are a lot older than yours and fairly smart kids but they never saw their father breaking the rules as him being naughty and needing punished. Mainly because no adults talked in that way to them or engendered thiose attitudes. Your kids have picked up that concept from somewhere. Instead we kept our angst and feelings well away from the kids and talked about processes for resolving conflict and didn't focus on getting a result to avenge our anger. And we didn't see Court proceedings as a form of enforcing a punishment but rather as a a a way for the children's need and views to be heard.
"the poor girl has no real idea of how to parent or relate to other human beings..."
There you are patronising again Obi, She has parented for 11 years, mostly as an at home parent , 4 as a single parent. she actually has more experience than you
I was not suggesting your 9 year old was patronising , I was suggesting you are in respect of your ex wife Obi and your 9 year old is picking that attitude up from you, very sad...
"your comment - 'Its tough on you but he will be happy'
says a lot... the childrens happiness no matter how its obtained is right?"
I was referring to the result Obi, you could insist on your rights and your right to spend time with your son and drag him into an almighty conflict or you could let him go on holiday with his mother like he wants and let him be happy about it.
Let him have some joy in his life.
Obi I was not suggesting you initiate any complaints with the police, far from it.
I was suggesting you play a parenting role with your children not play the policeman. What I suggested above is what a loving caring parent does when they think their child might have been abused, They talk to them and give them a chance to talk, they listen. They let them know its safe.
They don't keep it under their hat and gather evidence. They don't sit back and say I am PC Plod so I will only act when I am called on in my role!
Sorry Obi you don't get to take a backseat in the parenting role. Being a loving caring parent is about more than how many days you spend with your children.
Your these boys bloody parent for god sake! Not some policeman who is out to gather evidence and build a case against their mother so that she gets punished like you think she deserves.
Added By obiwan_kenobi on 11-12-2009
why no court? because she has told no1 son it will cost so much money it will stop the holiday no matter what...
it may be bullying, true- however the school approached me-remember? they have concerns and asked me general questions about those concerns...
we must agree to disagree- I lived with her - i know her- you dont. you havent even met her.
you may have a different opinion when you pick them up and they smell- because they dont shower. they are in the same clothes for weeks and they NEVER brush their teeth...
now they are old enough to do that themselves- BUT its the parent that needs to show by example.
let him have joy? at what cost? when do i draw the line at her control of my son?
whats next? no weekend contact? what do i do then? let her blackmail him?
take her to court?
or retire from parenting- and let them grow up without me- because that is what she wants- nothing would make her happier...
you just dont know her like i do ... if she dont get what she wants by asking - she compels...
patronising? no- just telling the truth. she does not behave like other people do... she is a deeply disturbed person. its not normal - i dare you to say otherwise- to assault someone over a period of 11-years causing countless injuries to someone they 'love'... i have to live with that EVERY day.
I would love to be a parent- what ? over the phone? on skype?
I have told the school what they wanted...
to suggest that i would keep an assault to myself in order to get best evidence is not only against the rules of evidence here in the UK- it is deeply insulting.
to suggest i would allow my sons to suffer like i did just to get back at her is the quite the most disgusting thing i have ever heard on this forum.
if I had the sniff even- that she was beating them with a belt- i would just keep them... and wait for social services to call. I would be initiating an arrest etc myself. I wouldnt need the school.
i really think you owe me an appology.
Added By Simes 2p on 11-12-2009
if oatsy deals with court and ex wifey in the same way he deals with people on this board- he is in for a ROUGH ride...
Kettle, Pot, Black.
Oscar, have you ever spoken to someone that deals with the Courts a lot and the issues that you face to get some good honest advice?
Like if someone was being harassed they might speak to a Policeman to get some basic advice.
You might benefit from it. You seem to be battling yourself (and owl) with the same old stuff and going round and round in circles.
Things are not black and white by any means, and there may be ways to deal with your issues that you hadn't thought of.
(I only say it because I care. Honest)
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 11-12-2009
not people simes- show me please any posts to back upi what you have suggested...??
i only have issues with one person here- owl.
it is clear that for reasons i just cant see- has a great deal of empathy for my ex... and no matter what I post she would always be looking to direct the reasons for her actions at me...
its annoying...
i mean- read that last post! she is basically accusing me of a number of things that are deeply upsetting for me. suggesting i was ALLOWING my OWN SON to be injured to get evidence to DO her!!!
WTF!!!!>>> did i get that wrong?
as to oatsy - he just wound everyone up - he was hurting- you may remember me offering to attend court with him...
I have spoken to a couple of people- my main frustration is that she seems to be able to do anything and get away with it...
I try to take the line of being the only grown up parent- and she just kicks me in the teeth at every opp... the kids are the real victims here- but owl dont agree with that even.
perhaps you should address your comment to her?
Added By Owl1 on 11-12-2009
Obi, of course you can be a parent over the phone and by skype, its what I have done for the last 4 years. I feel the parenting bond between me and my son has got closer in that time. He agrees.
I don't have much empathy for your ex, I do have empathy for you as an nrp because I have faced a lot of the issues you have faced and have come up against the same obstacles. And yet the parenting bond with my son has deepened in that time. It can be done.
When I refer to you as being patronising its the way you talk about her like some naughty little child that needs punishing,its not about you referring to the things she has done. "the poor girl" would be the key phrase above.
Obi if you think your children are being injured you as a parent have a responsibility to deal with it. That does not mean you have to run off and tell a policeman immediately. Its certainly not the first step a school takes. They address the welfare of the child, they are not focussed on punishing the parent. That may come later and it usually comes a long way down the line. The first step is to talk with your children, you know parent them. Parenting is about more than the physical things, clean teeth and a hot shower every day etc.
Obi you have a whiff that your son may be physically punished, you have indicated that the school have told you they have suspiscions and yet you have not spoken to him about why he keeps his coat on. You seem to have thought about it, reflected that you have not seen any bruises when he is with you and in the nic and then concluded that it probably isn't the case.
"I have spoken to a couple of people- my main frustration is that she seems to be able to do anything and get away with it..".
I agree with what Simes posts above Obi. I think you need to find a way to move on from your frustration as it is leaving you paralysed and in a black and white frame of mind. Focus instead on developing a relationship with your sons. Talk to people who done that successfully in your situation and how they have got there.
You may have to get over feeling frustrated as it taking you in the wrong direction. And I don't believe you being locked in frustration is helping your sons.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 11-12-2009
NO!
being stopped from seeing your kids is WRONG!
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG ...
no amount of liberal handwringing will change that...
you may have been satisfied with being a phone parent... i am not...
I dont have a whiff- because i see them in the nip every week...
now- READ MY POST!!! i did say that before...
Added By Owl1 on 11-12-2009
Obi, I am very satisfied that I am a complete parent to my son. He is very satisfied too.
Our relationship is deeply fulfilling to both of us, how it is carried out is neither here nor there.
I have his love trust and respect. He knows that I am always there for him. If the sh*t hit the fan in his life I would be the parent he rang first. He also loves his other parent, respects him generally although he can't always trust him. He knows and can articulate why that is and is accepting of that without being judgmental.
How about you start focusing on what is RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT about the relationship between you and your sons and build on that.
You have done something very important for one of them in the last few days. You have listened to him, acknowledged his feelings and allowed HIM to feel some control over his situation by letting him have what he wants. Yes you didn't get what you wanted and you may feel a loss of control as a result of that buts its not about you is it?
In coming to the decision you have you have built trust between you and your son. You have shown him respect and he will respect you for that. In short you have taken a very important step in enhancing your relationship not diminishing it.
And yet all you can see is that your relationship will somehow be diminished because you won't get to spend the seven days with him you were expecting.
I stopped focussing on how WRONG my ex was and started focussing on what was RIGHT with the relationship with my son. I worked on the things I could do to enhance that relationship. That approach worked.
The reality Obi is that both you and your ex will never again get to go home every day to find your children waiting to see you. They will be with one or other of you on any given day. Both of you will need to adapt to that reality. When your children are not physically in your care then you may have to be satisfied with other means of contact.
I am pleased that you are satisfied that your son's are not being physically punished. Did you give the school that reassurance? You have made a decision based on your conclusion after an assessment of the evidence and yet you are still happy to post the implication on here to build a negative picture of your ex.
Added By Stuart on 12-12-2009
"of course you can be a parent over the phone and by skype, its what I have done for the last 4 years. I feel the parenting bond between me and my son has got closer in that time. He agrees."
"I am very satisfied that I am a complete parent to my son. He is very satisfied too."
Now, they have got to be THE most ridiculous statements I have ever read on this board.....lol
Added By Owl1 on 12-12-2009
No not ridiculous Stuart just stating mine and my son's reality.
I have been here with you before though. Just because you have a limited field of vision doesn't mean all nrp's and their children do.
You don't have to believe our truth but that does not mean its untrue for us.
We know our reality. Obviously your bond with your son has not got stronger from spending less physical time with him.Thats sad for you but that is not the reality for all nrp's and their children.
Its the quality of the parent child relationship that counts not how and where it is conducted.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 12-12-2009
the difference- owl- is ...
that she has them for 24 nights a month- i have them for 6.
hardly a balanced amount eh?
why do i have them for 6?
because i dont want them?
because they get in the way of my relationship with my partner?
NO!
because SHE WONT ALLOW IT!!!
why are they not coming over this christmas?
BECAUSE SHE WONT ALLOW IT!!!
who gave her that right? who gave her the right to fuck with my kids minds?
as to 'phone parenting' if its that or nothing - i take that. BUT OWL if you could choose to see or have him live with you?
also- he may just be saying that- as you are fond of saying kids tell us what they think we want to hear? or is it different with you?
i told the school my observations- i reminded them (not that they needed to hear) that i cant really be an objective opinion- for obvious reasons.
'You have made a decision based on your conclusion after an assessment of the evidence and yet you are still happy to post the implication on here to build a negative picture of your ex.'
fuck you owl... with knobs on.
you really are a complete nutter. I would be very happy in future if you would NOT POST ON MY THREADS. you are deliberately trying to wind me up... why else would you post such idiotic dribble.
you cant count either - its FOUR WEEKS without contact- I do the seven day without contact every week.
thanks for the app btw - gave me a warm feeling.
as i indicated above- i have more repect for oatsy- than you... you are a pernicious harpy. Go feast on someone else and leave me alone.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 12-12-2009
grrrr...
what my ex is- is an abuser... plain and simple.
pathetic and weak.
using two innocent children as weapons to exert control over someone that escaped her vile behavior - i cant tell you the utter contempt i have for the way she behaves.
'Its the quality of the parent child relationship that counts not how and where it is conducted'
ahh... i think you have missed the simple fact that the two are LINKED...
Added By Owl1 on 12-12-2009
Obi they are not coming for Christmas because you had them 24Dec to Jan 2 last year, its her turn to have them on Christmas day this year.
They are not coming 18 Dec to 24 Dec because you have made a decision not to take her to Court to enforce Contact over that period this year as you have listened to your son and agreed with him that he can go on holiday overthat time instead of spending it with you.
"why do i have them for 6? "
Because that is what a Court has determined you should have after you asked the Court to make a decsion re Contact with your sons.If you want that changed go back to Court.
as to 'phone parenting' if its that or nothing - i take that. BUT OWL if you could choose to see or have him live with you?
Obi I was happy with my son's living arrangements. I would have preferred he stayed in this country and given choice so would he. However he knows if he had he would have lost his relationship with his father as that was what his father told him. Fair-well no but that is our reality, getting angry and upset and depressed and using abusive language or calling my ex all the names under the sun was not going to change that.
So we have built our relationship on what we have got and it has got deeper than ever before. Adversity can do that. And my son trusts me absolutely. That is all that matters. It certainly doesn't matter what I think of his father or whether I have won the battle as against him. Your perception that you have lost out to your ex seems to affect you big time and eats you up.
Its fine if you think my posts are idiotic dribble Obi. If you feel you have to respond to that with insults then that is your right. Your insults don't affect me, they are just a reflection of your entrenched thinking and your tendancy to resort to abuse when someone offers you a point of view that does not align with your own.
If you get wound up by them then stand back and reflect why that might be? Or just don't read my posts.
You do still get so wound up by your ex, maybe you need to get some help with that.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 12-12-2009
it says in the order-
'for one week each school Christmas Holiday'
not- NO WEEK in alt years.
Added By Owl1 on 13-12-2009
I know what the order says Obi. However by agreeing with your son that he goes on holiday with his Mum in the week you should have them you have consented to that variation so that she has them for the week that you would have had them.
You could have witheld your consent to that. However your son would have been upset as he wanted to go on holiday.
So you gave your ex that right.
Deal with it and move on.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 13-12-2009
all true- but the real PROBLEM in this is her? yes? she told me there would be no access? she arranged a holiday AFTER I said i would breach her?
thing is about- 'deal with it and move on' is sooner or later- there wont be anything to MOVE ON from! the kids will have grown up - poisoned against me.
oh- try playing baseball over the phone- quite hard...
reading your post made me wonder if your son may come to resent you. I mean - where is your fight owl? Would you fight to see your son? did you? for how long?
or did you just give up and lay down like a sheep? I wonder if in 10-years he may look back and hear his fathers words in his ears, 'well, she didnt exactly push hard-son'...
being there for someone on the phone is nice- but its not the same as hugging them. not the same as holding them and telling them its will be ok...
just curious...
because- my kids KNOW how hard i fought - for every hour- of contact- what it cost me - not in money- but me - personally - to deal with that scum that calls herself a mother. They know how UNFAIR the system is and how SHE is the one that is preventing us from being together.
?
Added By Owl1 on 13-12-2009
Obi my son does not resent me, our relationship has continued, it never stopped and that is my point, it just took a course neither of us would have predicted 2 years earlier, the strength of the relationship didn't change though.
He is 19, he knows the score, he knows what went down, he was actually part of the Court proceedings. He took me on a tour of the Royal Courts of Justice to show me where it all happened (its the one "tourist attraction" he had been to in London despite living quite close, and he thought it might interest his lawyer Mum). We had a very interesting discussion about it and the processes involved.
Part of us making the decision to take Hague Proceedings was about showing him that we were prepared to fight and that we would give him his opportunity to have his say. As my daughters said at the time "be the Mum and parent you have always been". He has got one parent acting "totally off the wall" (their words) he doesn't need you to do a complete about turn as well. They also needed to see one of their parents continuing as normal and being the parent they had always had.
However once the decision was made about where he would live it was time to go into another mode, plan B and a long distant relationship for a while.
It was also time to for me to put aside my anger at my ex's actions and move to a far more constructive phase. I am not saying that was easy Obi and I needed a lot of support to do it. The people who supported me were family who cared about both me and my children equally and did not have a vested interest in being my rescuer , dear friends who were not afraid to give me a good shake and telling off when i got too negative and self pitying and professional colleagues who worked in the Family Courts and knew the common non productive and self destructive traps many frustrated nrp's fall into. A UK based organisation called Reunite were also very helpful.
I also accessed a counsellor to work through the feelings of anger and injustice that I felt. I didn't attend counselling to cure those feelings so that they disappeared as I knew there was no cure and the counsellor could not change how things had turned out. But I learned I could do things to relieve those feelings and move on from them. I was able to let go of the need to blame mainly because I found blaming was not at all useful to either me or my son.
As a result my son unlike your sons Obi was able to have at least one parent who didn't see their other parent as absolute "scum" nor wasted energy on hating that parent. Moving past that meant I was no longer expending my energy on blaming, being angry, being resentful and hating. It freed me up to expend my energy on postive things. At the moment a lot of your energy is going into all those negative things. It won't be making you very pretty, just look back on some of the abuse you have hurled on this thread.
So tell me Obi, how is all that blaming and anger and hating you do and have helping you and how is it helping your sons? As Simes says its just taking you round and round in circles with the result you get more infuriated, frustrated, disillusioned and hateful.
You are always telling us how blaming and hate and anger turns your ex into an ugly person. Blaming hate and anger does that to people Obi and you are no exception even if its the last thing you want to happen You are always telling us that her problem is she can't move on from that, that she refuses to get over it. You are locked in the same cycle even though you may not intend to be. You will have to help yourself out of that cycle. Its not easy Obi, its bloody hard but it can be done.
There were plenty of times of telling my son it would be OK and vice versa too. There were times neither of us probably quite believed that. But I didn't dwell on that as my son had a life to live, a new school to settle into, new friends. He had a life, his life was not just our relationship or the relationship with his other parent. He had a multi dimensional life and your sons have that too, although right now this may be all consuming to you.
In 10 years time my son may not even hear from his father much. He knows that is a real possibility as that is his sisters reality. He knows he will have to assume prime responsibility for maintaining that relationship. He knows that wherever he lives in the world our relationship will continue as that is his experience.
Obi have your boys been poisoned against you yet, in 4 years? Wake up and smell the roses Obi and look at what is real. After 4 years you tell us that they still get desparately upset if they can't see you when they expect to. The poison if it is being injected is not that effective is it?
"because- my kids KNOW how hard i fought - for every hour- of contact- what it cost me - not in money- but me - personally - to deal with that scum that calls herself a mother. They know how UNFAIR the system is and how SHE is the one that is preventing us from being together."
No Obi the reason you cannot spend as much time with your kids as what you would like is that you and their mother are divorced and when two parents get divorced decisions need to be made about who the children spend their time with and for how long. Its as simple as that. Accept that reality and deal with it.
By blaming your ex for it all you are closing yourself off from being part of the solution. You just want someone to come down and drop a bomb on her, tell her she is a very naughty girl and order her to do as Obi says and then it will all be OK.
It just aint going to happen like that Obi so its time for you to realise you will need to open your eyes to other possibilities.
I say none of the above to wind you up. I say it because I care. Honestly I mean that. I was once fortunate enough to have people who cared enough to tell me the things I didn't want to hear and left me wound up. I am pleased they persisted and I woke up and smelt the roses.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 13-12-2009
firstly, thanks for the post- very detailed...
I have seen a councillor she confessed to a certain amount of dis-belief of X's actions- i mean, who would do things like that to her own children?
divorce is not the deciding factor here - i am not stupid, i know i could never see as much of them now compared to when we lived together however, my partner is divorced and her kids see their dad EVERY weekend... it can be done if the is a WILL to do it... she has only one wish- to see me dead or failing that to cause me as much pain and upset as is possible... she is an incredibly hateful and vindictive person- the teachers at both schools now see her with a witness- as she had accused them of lying etc... scary.
Remember, she has carried on a hate campaign against her dad for 25-years... so we have a long way to go yet!
No- the deciding factor in how much time i spend with the boys is: her and her hatred of me.
you just don't know what i am dealing with- its not your fault -you just have never met anyone like her.
neither had my cafcas officer... or my solicitor -and he had been doing family court work for a long time...
I suppose we have more in common than I first thought- but we are both VERY different personalities- my nature is to challenge and question things that are patently wrong.
As to the poison argument- yes- at the moment she is not being successful- but it dont stop her trying- she is patient.
I cant be part of the solution- if i am not able to. She doesnt do compromise- how do you deal with someone that hates you- when they know they have TOTAL power over the one thing in life you really want?
you cant.
hence court.
I dont want other possibilities- i want justice for me and my sons.
the only way- the only WAY to relieve myself of this - is to walk away from my sons.
and that is the one thing i will never do.
Added By Owl1 on 13-12-2009
Obi, your consellor may have expressed disbelief at your ex's actions but he/she would not have been surprised by them. They deal with that sort of thing all the time. Cafcass and your solicitor may have expressed disbelief too but it would not have surprised them. This is the fodder of the Family Courts, it goes on day in and day out.
Its not your counsellor's job to comment one way or the other on your ex. Thats not why you were at counselling. Its your counsellor's job to focus on you and your feelings and be a facilitator for you in spite of what brough you to counselling.. If what you took out of counselling was that your ex was wrong and you were right, then it probabably was not sucessful as you went there on the wrong premise. Its just plain irrelevant to the Counselling process what your counsellor thinks of your ex.
But for the record my counsellor rolled her eyebrows at the ex. My solicitor expressed disbelief at my ex's actions. Its what you do as part of the conversation and getting to know the situation. And then you do their real job, the one you have been engaged to do.
You spend a lot of time garnering other peoples views to support your own beliefs Obi. Have you ever wondered why with all those people expressing disbelief your ex is still is pwc to your children? Doing that may not be helpful to you either. Being able to rattle off 50 people who agree with you that your ex is the biggest piece of works they have met hasn't changed anything. Many of those 50 people will have long forgotten their conversation with you, just a snapshot in time and have moved onto their next case or the next person they lend an ear to.
It doesn't matter whether she carried on a hate campaign against her father for 25 years. She is allowed to hate her parents. she won't be the first person to do so and she won't be the last.
You can't be part of the solution as you choose not to change your behaviour and attitudes and open yourself to other possibilities. I changed my behaviour reactions and attitudes. It didn't change my ex one iota, I knew at the start I just didn't have that power ( you have no power to change your ex either Obi) so that was not why I made changes. I made the changes to assist my son, myself and our family.
I didn't deal with my ex because there was no dealing with him. I worked on the things I could instead. It was not about saying I was somehow at fault or had caused the situation. It was about saying this is the card we have been dealt right now. We don't like that card but we are going to make the most of it and play the best hand we can.
It worked. I have a well adjusted happy secure 19 year old son who knows his Dad is a bit of a nutter but who loves him nonetheless. My son and I have a good relationship. Now that was my goal and outcome. I knew if I could do what I could to work on achieving that goal then all would be OK.
You are not going to get the justice you want Obi, but spend 25 years trying if you want and stay just where you are now. Your children will have long flown the nest by then.
You can do so much better for your sons and yourself than that.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 13-12-2009
and if they do- and i did not see them - then what is the point?
i may as well just tell them - 'sorry, boys this isnt working- I will just get on with my life, see you when you are 30 - i hope...'
'oh sorry i didnt see you when you were kids- thats down to your mum...'
'eh? sorry no idea why... ask her... i just got on with my life - when i realised i wasnt going to make head way i just gave up and took up basket weaving instead...'
'it wasnt the same as seeing you - but it was cheaper and i got lots of baskets- see?'
'what do you mean selfish bastard?'
'its not selfish to walk away from an insoluble issue'
'i should have tried harder? well that easy for you to say son- you didnt have to deal with your mum... eh? oh right- i forgot you DID...'
'mum said i just walked out- then stopped seeing you? no- son thats a lie...'
'you dont believe me because i did NOTHING to stop her?'
ahh son- you just dont know your mum like i do...
etc...
TARDIS SOUND...
well here we are in 2020 ... who are those young men ? ahhh... my sons...
funny- they dont speak to me, want to know me... why? because i didnt want to know them?
Owl- here is a story...
I dont know my nan... she is still alive. For the 1st 8-years of my life i saw her quite regulary... then - she stopped coming because 'it was too far on the bus'
many years passed... and when i was 25- she made contact again... my mum seemed a little upset that i didnt seem that bothered... when she asked why- i said, 'was she bothered about me for the last 18-years? nope... missed opportunity...'
moral?
guard the things you love... because- they will fly if held to lightly- and die if held too tightly...
I wont be put in that situation myself...
you might be ok with it... im not...
Added By Owl1 on 13-12-2009
Obi, you see your sons regularly. That has been going on for the past 4 years.
If you choose to walk away from that because you are finding not spending ALL your time with them too hard then that will be your choice.
Things are hard sometimes Obi, mature well functioning adults and effective parents find ways of dealing with their angst so they can act in the best interests of their kids not themselves.
That is what YOU have to do.
You know that, go get some help to cope with your feelings so you can be a mature well functioning adult and effective parent.
"guard the things you love... because- they will fly if held to lightly- and die if held too tightly...
I wont be put in that situation myself...
you might be ok with it... im not..."
OBI I HAVE NOT PUT MYSELF IN A SITUATION WHERE I AM ESTRANGED FROM ANY OF MY CHILDREN IN ANY WAY. AS A RESULT I AM NOT ESTRANGED FROM ANY OF THEM. THE BOND REMAINS UNDAMAGED AND IF ANYTHING STRONGER
.
Thats because I did guard the things I loved but I also had enough confidence in that love to give them some options and choices.
There are two things we can give our children Obi, Roots and Wings. Roots to know who they are and where they come from. Wings to fly and soar and make the best of the people they are. They don't get that by parents holding on tightly because they are too frightened to let them expand their wings in ways that don't involve them.
In short Obi I got the result me and my children needed by taking the actions I did.
I am not telling you to give up. I am encouraging you to look at taking another approach.
As Simes says its not black and white. There is not just fight or flight when faced with a situation you don't like. You need to change your thinking in that regard as thinking like that is letting yourself and ultimately your sons down.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 13-12-2009
love it owl...
'Things are hard sometimes Obi, mature well functioning adults and effective parents find ways of dealing with their angst so they can act in the best interests of their kids not themselves.'
if only she did eh?
I dont need help to cope with my feelings- just to see my kids more - for the 'person' that my children live with at the moment to OBEY THE ORDER.
vile...
Added By Owl1 on 13-12-2009
You can only change your own behaviour Obi, you can't change hers.
If you are so arrogant as to believe you don't need help with your feelings and that you are coping why are you posting that you are not?
Everyone needs help Obi, admitting that is a sign of strength, not a weakness.
If you don't get to see your kids more, your feelings of anger, frustration, bitterness, helplessness, and hate are not going to go away. They will probably increase as you get more infuriated.
Is that the way you want to be for the rest of your life? Is it what your kids need for a father?
However if you want your children's mother to obey the order you will have to take the action you need to get it enforced.
You have decided not to though so that is probably not going to happen.
So what is your next step Obi?
Staying enraged, infuriated, bitter and filled with hate?
Will that help you?
Will that help your sons?
Is any of it useful?
Ask yourself instead, what little thing can I do to increase my sons sense of security and feeling of being loved by their father?
What little thing can I do for myself today to take myself out of the mire I find myself in?
Small steps Obi, small steps.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 14-12-2009
'Is that the way you want to be for the rest of your life? Is it what your kids need for a father?'
i cant stop being a dad... ergo i cant stop feeling angry that i am denied access.
the feeling of being controlled is so upsetting and abhorrent to me - because if the abuse i guess. I know she is laughing at my impotence...
after years of abuse and then thinking i had escaped- only to find the abuse has changed to a different tune- its really difficult.
how do you deal with that?
Added By Stuart on 14-12-2009
"Obviously your bond with your son has not got stronger from spending less physical time with him.Thats sad for you but that is not the reality for all nrp's and their children."
lol....my son is with me on average 3 nights per week....err, thats just about shared care...
The bond between me and my son is stronger than you will ever understand so your comments are a bit pointless.
"Its the quality of the parent child relationship that counts not how and where it is conducted."
But surely where and how it is conducted contributes to the quality of the relationship??
I cant understand how there can be a good quality relationship with someone who you only speak to on the phone or skype or MSN...
It puts me in mind of the famous Tony Hancock sketch the radio ham where Tony is playing various games (snakes and ladders / chess) with people from around the world on a radio set.lol
Look, Im glad your situation works for you Owl. Personally it would never work for me. and just because you dont have that natural maternal feeling and are happy with a long distant relationship with your children please dont attack those who want to take a more proactive and hands on appraoch to contact with their children.
Added By Stuart on 14-12-2009
Sorry...just found another gem....
"There are two things we can give our children Obi, Roots and Wings. Roots to know who they are and where they come from. Wings to fly and soar and make the best of the people they are. They don't get that by parents holding on tightly because they are too frightened to let them expand their wings in ways that don't involve them."
All very romantic Owl if you are talking about a child who has developed into a young adult and wants to move up with their life and have new experiences but hardly relevant in Obi's situation.
His children arent "spreading their wings", they are having them clipped by mum.
His children arent going off to university or moving abroad to work or study, their mother is simply preventing them from having very much contact with him.
Incidently, your child didnt spread his wings either, his father took him away from you. He would have prefered to have stayed with you? Why didnt you fight???
I get the impression that you are fooling yourself over this.
Oh by the way, you keep claiming to be a solicitor? What area of law do you practice? Im guessing conveyancing....lol
Added By Owl1 on 14-12-2009
Stuart I accept it wouldn't work for you. My ex can't do long distant relationships with his children either which is why he is estranged from two of them. That doesn't mean that others can't. Some people are like that, they can only relate to people if they are in their physical presence, but we are not all wired like that Stuart.
"Look, Im glad your situation works for you Owl. Personally it would never work for me. and just because you dont have that natural maternal feeling and are happy with a long distant relationship with your children please dont attack those who want to take a more proactive and hands on appraoch to contact with their children"
Stuart I suspect I have spent significantly more hands on time with my children than you will ever spend with your son while he is growing up and have been far more pro-active in their lives on a day to day basis than you have been or will ever be with your son.
Its probably the strength of my maternal feelings and the strong bond we have that makes it possible to carry on relationships with the same intensity whether in person or at a distance.
"Incidently, your child didnt spread his wings either, his father took him away from you. He would have prefered to have stayed with you? Why didnt you fight???
I get the impression that you are fooling yourself over this."
he did spread his wings Stuart and he has had many new experiences that he has benefitted from. We did fight, Hague Convention proceedings. He is OK with how things turned out and so am I. That doesnn't mean that at times things were not incredibly hard for him. What he needed from me during that time was understanding, someone to listen and someone to guide him through. He just needed parented through the tough times. That was the one constant in his life, the parent who emotionally parented him and listened to him.
Its something he can articulate. Dad's good for doing stuff, your good for listening and understanding. If my son had a problem he wouldn't talk about it with his father ( neither would my daughters). My ex was the most marvellous hands on Dad when my kids were growing up, he did lots of stuff with them, but he wasn't the person they turned to if they needed emotional support.
So my parenting has not changed. I have been a parent 24/7 for the last 23 years and will continue to be for my lifetime. Its an essential part of my identity and being. We all parent differently and have differing strengths.
I am a general practioner Stuart, anything but criminal.
Added By Stuart on 14-12-2009
Hands on parenting down the phone or via skype eh?
Ridiculous.....
Added By Owl1 on 14-12-2009
Well its ridculous to you Stuart, but maybe that is an indication of your close minededness.
Everything is going to be ridiculous if you don't open your mind to the opportunities any given situation offers.
Which is where Obi gets himself stuck and frustrated.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 14-12-2009
I see where you are going owl- really- if you are in prison and the only way to have a relationship with your wife is by letter- or nothing- I would take the mail option.
However, I think where I disagree and poss where Stuart disagrees is that given the choice- it should be 50% ...
Good parallel with prison- as you could even say I 'chose' to go... as i chose to take the path of criminality that ended up me being there...
HOWEVER...
thats not really what happened in my case owl... I was abused. I am still being abused. by the woman that has my kids. the woman that kisses them goodnight every night...
I escaped. Escaped or i would have been injured or killed.
and now... i have to face her abusing me again... and my kids too...
thanks for your posts owl- i know you mean well but- the road to hell is paved with good intentions...
i stand by my feelings- they are normal and natural. I cant change the way i feel about my ex- she is a vile person. really. not nice.
I know- cos i lived with her and ... you didnt. so you just dont know- i havent posted the worst things she has done to me...
I understand i have no real recourse in law. or any way to expedite my situation.
so... I will just wait for the powers that be... (as they surely will- hope they do it before my kids are mad)... sort her out...
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 14-12-2009
also owl- how do you give you son a hug?
or help him choose his first car?
online? not trying to be funny - but really...
i just think you cant be a parent - anymore than a digital doctor can be a replacement for a doctor...
2nd best - at best...
Added By Owl1 on 15-12-2009
You are perfectly entitled to feel whatever way you want about your ex Obi. If you feel she is vile then all well and good. I'm not telling you you should stop feeling and thinking she is vile, go ahead and feel that way for the rest of your life.
But how you feel about your ex is irrelevant to how YOU nurture, develop and expand your parenting relationship with your sons. Thats your role as a parent. You don't need to change how you feel about your ex to develop and enhance your relationship with your sons.
You may need to find a way to cope with your feelings when you feel your ego has been dented or wounded by your ex's actions as that seems to be leaving you very frustrated, feeling totally disempowered and a little paralysed. And I agree with you that is incredibly hard to deal with. I've been there ( and I don't have the male ego and all the conditioning about not taking orders or not allowing yourself to be controlled by a mere girl to contend with) and I found it hard to deal with. But I managed it, so that my ex's actions no longer affect me or wound me in that way.
If you think you have no way to expediate your situation then you obviously are not that resourceful.
If you think all you can do is wait until the powers that be "sort her out" you really are barking up the wrong tree.
You so disempower yourself Obi ( and your sons in the process) when you hand over the responsibility to some mystical "powers that be" to fix things so that you have a better relationship with your sons.
The power is really in your hands Obi, if you just looked at other possibilities outside of having someone lay down the law to your ex and force her to change her behaviour.
Obi a doctor is a functional professional relationship that requires some interpersonal communication. If I'm sick I don't care how that communication happens as long as I get the advice to make me well. If my doctor leaves his practice then I simply go out and find another doctor when and if I need to access medical care.
A parent child relationship is a deeply personal relationship that is 24/7 and lasts a lifetime. It is not measured merely by the functionality of tasks performed but by the deep emotional connection between parent and child.
I bet you are looking forward to helping your eldest choose his first car. His feeling of joy will give you warm fuzzy feelings that make you feel good about yourself. Actually you can pick up those feeling by talking on the phone or online, its just an expression of emotion. When your eldest gets to that stage he will be most concerned about getting his first car, he won't be too worried about who he shares that experience with. But it will be important to you.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 15-12-2009
not ego! i miss them!
lol- its difficult to diagnose over the phone... how do you touch?
in the same way - how do I drive over the phone! ???
You just let it go owl- i cant... my sons are too precious to walk away from.
Not resourceful? mmm... poss...
someone wryly once said that being an nrp is like playing poker against a person that has the best cards (the kids), knows they have the best cards and knows what crap cards you have...
all they have to do is keep you from calling too often..
Added By Owl1 on 15-12-2009
"You just let it go owl- i cant... my sons are too precious to walk away from."
Obi I have never walked away from any of my children and don't intend to ever.
Thats my point, just because you have less physical contact than you had before does not mean you have less of a parenting relationship. Its not black and white or mutually exclusive. If you keep focussing on what you can't have you don't see what you can have. And what you can have is wonderful.
I could have said OK thats it the authorities can't help, so goodbye son, phone contact is just not where its at for me as I will feel second rate and you will have a second rate parent and thats not good enough for you. How negative an attitude is that?
What I did instead was focussed on what I could do. I also asked my son what he needed from me. He said just be you Mum, like you always have. Another words be there for me in whatever way you can. So I was there to listen to him, to hear the exciting new things that were going on in his life, to hear his emerging philosophies and understanding of his world, to comfort and counsel him when things seemed confusing and difficult adapting to a new culture. I continued to provide for him a very real link with his home and his life here in the place he calls his home country. I helped him with his homework, spent endless hours discussing the AB's and analysing their games as well as the Super 12. I bought his clothes and sent them over, kept his reading material up.
He also got to see me changing as my confidence that accompanied my new life soared and he liked that. His words, its your turn now Mum.
I got a lot of joy from the relationship and he did too. We still do.
"not ego! i miss them"
I know thats a very real element of why you feel so distraught but this is what you have also posted.
"the feeling of being controlled is so upsetting and abhorrent to me - because if the abuse i guess. I know she is laughing at my impotence...
:
And then you go on to post and ask the question "how do you deal with that"
Her laughing at your impotence affects and wounds you. Thats enough element of your frustration. There is nothing wrong with feeling wounded by that. But if you are going to find ways to cope and deal with your feelings so that they don't overcome you to the point of destruction you may have to acknowledge and be honest about all the elements that contribute to you feeling the way you do.
"Not resourceful? mmm... poss..."
Here's a tip Obi, next time someone suggests that there may be other approaches and things you can do to help yourself so you are better placed to enhance your relationship with your sons just listen, take it on board and resist the urge for half an hour to argue with them and point out all the reasons why it would never work.
Resist the urge to then give them a diatribe of all your grievances and what is wrong in your life.
Then write the idea down on a piece of paper and leave it there and keep adding to that piece of paper every time someone offers you an alternative approach.
Look at that piece of paper often, look at it when you are in a moment when you are not feeling consumed by anger and see what you can do in that moment.
Like I say small steps to recovering from your black hole Obi.
If you keep thinking all you have is crap cards you will just give up trying.
When I was in your phase Obi I raged at my ex. I turned everything back to him. I did that until the people who loved me best told me enough. They got fed up with my negativity but most of all they got fed up that I was wasting the potential sitting in front of me.
I'm glad they cared enough to do that.
Added By Stuart on 15-12-2009
"I also asked my son what he needed from me. He said just be you Mum, like you always have."
Hang on Owl....a while ago you were claiming how much of a hands on parent you were....
Surely there is a difference between hands on and available 24/7 on the phone?
Sounds like a sort of "help line parent"....lol
Personally I WANT to be there for my son. I want to share his life for real not on the end of a skype message or phone contact.
I dont care how much you say your way is better, I think its crap. It might be ok for adult children but its not real parenting when you have young children.
If your child was unfortunately involved in an accident could you be by the bed side?
Err...no....telephone contact would be no substitute for a cuddle Owl and please dont fool yourself into thinking that it would be.
Added By Owl1 on 16-12-2009
I was a hands on parent Stuart and still contune to be everyday. I had care of my son for 15 lf years. For the first ten of those years I was a fulltime at home Mum. When he 10 I resumed fulltime University study but was always there after school and in school holidays.
I cooked his meals, cleaned for him, did all the school stuff, all the out of school stuff, organised his schedule, spent hours playing with him when he was young.
Like I say I would have spent far more time with my son growing up than you will ever spend with yours.
If my son was in an accident I would be at his bedside as soon as I could travel to the other side of the world, which is a 20 hour flight. My son knows that
Our oldest daughter had an operation for cancer and where was her other parent? On the other side of the world. An email was all she got. So my son also knows that his Dad will not go out of his way to support his children in a crisis as he has seen it happen. I wouldn't do that to my children.
Have you ever tried cuddling a 15 year old boy Stuart, they just aren't that into their Mums doing that. I'd say my son has had more cuddles from his nrp that lives on the other side of the world in 4 years than from his pwc that he lives with.
Telephone contact was fine for my son in his situation Stuart and so it was fine for me. This was not about my needs as a parent but his needs given his situation.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 16-12-2009
your answers speak volumes to me owl... surprising you wouldnt know they were no quite right...
'Have you ever tried cuddling a 15 year old boy Stuart, they just aren't that into their Mums doing that'
err... they are actually...
'I'd say my son has had more cuddles from his nrp that lives on the other side of the world in 4 years than from his pwc that he lives with'
err... how do you know that- you were 12,000 miles away... on a plant that has a mean circumference of 24,000 miles you cant get any further away...
always wanted to ask this one- if you wanted to be with your son so much... why not move near him?
so- you went back to uni? mmm... not much time for son then eh?
I now know what happened here owl- so dont lecture me again about self interest...
Added By Owl1 on 16-12-2009
'I'd say my son has had more cuddles from his nrp that lives on the other side of the world in 4 years than from his pwc that he lives with'
Obi I know that because my son has told me that. But then my son and his father are both kiwi males so there may be a cultural thing there. Kiwi males tend to value rugged individulism and are not forward in expressing their emotions physically.
I know many mothers of 15 year old sons here and they all say the same thing. maybe english 15 year old boys are different.
To make your comment you must have a differing experience of 15 year old boys to me.
me and my son hug when we meet and hug when we bid each other farewell. I hug my daughters more often than that when I am with them. In our culture that would be the norm.
"always wanted to ask this one- if you wanted to be with your son so much... why not move near him?"
Three reasons Obi and I will list them in order of priority for me.
1. Firstly I actually have two other children that live in this country. When my ex moved to the UK he did so on the premise to them that he was going on holiday and would return. So there his daughters were waiting to meet him at the airport and he didn't show. So they rang their grandmother who said he had contacted her 3 weeks prior to say he was not returning. he had told her he was going to send his daughters an email. He actually rang them both twice after that and pretended he would be back on the appointed date knowing full well he had no intention of returning.
I don't know if you can imagine the sense of betrayal my daughters felt Obi at that time. The last thing they needed was for their mother to abscond to the other side of the world to be with their brother. They needed parenting too at that crucial time in spite of the fact that they were both University students. I am a parent to 3 children Obi not just 1 and parenting continues until my death. I know and believe that.
2. Even if I had moved to the UK it was likely my ex would have made contact with my son difficult and that would have resulted in him feeling torn. My son knew this, its recorded in the cafcass report. His court appointed lawyer or the child knew this. Reunite who facilitated mediation knew this.
3. I have no automatic right to reside in the UK. As a New Zealand citizen I can visit for up to six months but I am not allowed to work in that time. I would probably qualify for an HSMP Visa but that is not a given. That would be the only way I could reside permanently in the UK.
Obi I went back to Uni. that inolved around 4 hours a day structured around my children's schedules. You know what in the whole of his time as a parent my ex worked up to 60 hours a week. He also spent a large part of his weekend s pursuing his flying interest
And yet I would never say he ( or you ) had not much time for his children because of that.
Again I know which parent spent more time with their children during our relationship. And I suspect when you were married your ex spent more time with your children than you.
You are really scraping the bottom of the barrell there Obi. Do you really believe that parents who do things outside of the home are just self interested?
Or are you one of these men who believe that if a women dares go outside of the home they are a neglectful parent.
Shame on you if you believe that Obi.
Added By obiwan_kenobi on 16-12-2009
i dont believe any such thing...
if you care to read my post above- you may see that i kind of agreed with you parenting over the phone as -you had nothing else.
as to ex spent more time with kids- that is YOUR prejudice at work thinking ladies stay at home and men go to work...
I spent more time with the boys as i was the primary care giver for my sons- hence why it was such a wrench to them and me - not being at home.
I worked shifts... so i was available more often in the day than most 9-5 ers...
It was hard... but rewarding... eh? what was she doing? sleeping- depressed...
so - really you got that wrong bigtime...
anyway...
Added By Stuart on 16-12-2009
"Like I say I would have spent far more time with my son growing up than you will ever spend with yours."
Really? Oh ok Owl....if YOU say so....must be right then....lol
"If my son was in an accident I would be at his bedside as soon as I could travel to the other side of the world, which is a 20 hour flight. My son knows that"
20 friggin hours?? Wow....as soon as that huh?
And mum of the year award goes to.........
Added By Owl1 on 16-12-2009
Obi, I don't automatically think women stay at home and men go to work. But in your case I know you went to work and your ex stayed at home as you have posted that on here many times.
So why post the insinuation if you don't believe it Obi. Why insinuate a woman who goes out and studies is a neglectful mother?
Were you neglectful for choosing to spend time away from your children outside of the home?
You do post some mysoginistic sounding things at times Obi.
Its sad your ex suffered depression when she lived with you Obi. I hope she has recovered now. Depression can be crippling, ( as you will no doubt know being a sufferer). A parent who spends their time in bed with it is unwell but not a neglectful or bad parent either.
Stuart, i kow you only have one child, some off us have more. My children live in different countries on opposite sides of the world. I can't be at the bedside of all three of them in 10 mins, thats an impossibility. However I know if my son did have an accident his father can and would be at his bedside in 10 mins so I am Ok arriving 20 hours later. If my daughters had an accident they would have to make do with just me as the ex believes he cannot leave the UK.
So Stuart on your analysis any parent who does not live with their child is a "less than" parent.
My whole point is that nrp's are not "less than" but they get themselves trapped into thinking like that just like Obi does.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 16-12-2009
sorry owl- but i cant be held responsible for anything you deduce from a post...
in the same way you cant be held resp for anything i deduce from yours- ...
touche...
is it any wonder i an a mysoginist?
why get married... find a woman you hate and buy her a house...
lol
on a lighter note...
i have just kissed my sons bye bye for 3-weeks... fair eh...
oh - i forgot... I can still be a great dad for my 5- min phone call... in fact i can be as good as anyone that lives with their kids... because its the QUALITY of that 5-mins a day ... when she allows it, of course...
in fact- why not stop seeing the kids completely!
think of how brilliant i could be then?
as to depression ... dont get me going...
as i had a full time job, looking after a depressed wife and dealing with my boys and all of the admin that goes with them- i have some idea of what its like to be busy...
you patronising bugger.
Added By Owl1 on 17-12-2009
Obi if you married a woman you hated at the time of marriage then you were a fool. Marrying someone you hate but vowing to love them is a fairly schizo thing to do.
Any wonder your wife then suffered from depression, living with a spouse who hated you at the outset would be enough to induce depression in anyone.
If you marry someone you hate then the chances of the marriage succeeding are fairly unlikely so yes you run the risk of losing some of your assets when the inevitable divorce comes.
Thats not the fault of women generally, thats your fault for being an ingenuine fool. Assign the blame to the right place, don't target women and develop mysoginistic attitudes.
I am sure you know what it is like to be busy. I never said you didn't.
I don't imagine it was easy living with a wife that was depressed, but I also don't believe it would have been easy living with a husband that hated you either.
No one is suggesting you stop seeing your kids Obi ( except you, you keep suggesting to us it may be a solution to your problems with your ex)
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 17-12-2009
t was all my fault then... I dont know why owl- but the song by cindi lauper is playng in my mind now- you know... true colours?
as you werent there- to see what happened - i will forgive your bullshit answers...
oh and the comment about marraige was a joke...
hence lol...
still...
she was depressed LONG before we met... she is off her trolley owl... mad as a box of frogs...
the school rang me yesterday they have now assigned a TA to my son to help him - as he is 'sad he isnt seing his dad' they had to lie to her! because they are 'scared of her reaction' !!!
pretty obvious they can see who is the rational - normal - not barking person eh?
only one person i know dont- you.
ingenuine fool? is that the best you can do?
you man hating hippy...
Added By Owl1 on 17-12-2009
Being depressed does not mean you are off your trolley or mad Obi. You really do have some stereotypical attitudes to mental illness.
You yourself have acknowledged suffering from depression.
I don't hate men Obi. I like them. I hate mysogynist attitudes to women.
why get married... find a man you hate and buy him a house...
Good joke eh Obi
I'm not sure what the TA is going to do in 2 days to assist your son feel better about not seeing his Dad for the next 3 weeks Obi. However if his behaviour is disruptive to others or he has learning difficulties as a result of how he feels then maybe you need to do what is best for him long term and go for more Contact.
"they had to lie to her! because they are 'scared of her reaction' !!!"
Is that the school lying to your ex Obi about why you son has been assigned a TA? I doubt schools lie to parents as they are scared of their reaction, schools and the people that staff them are more professional than that but they do withold information to protect the child. Usually they just say that a TA has been assigned to assist with learning.
However over here schoolteachers often give evidence in Court to support an application for more Contact. Are those concerned teachers willing to provide an affidavit in support of a Contact application for you? Can they express their concerns to the authorities?
Added By obiwan_kenobi on 17-12-2009
I doubt schools lie to parents as they are scared of their reaction..
she said exactly- 'we are going to sell it to your ex-wife by saying that we are concerned luke has said he has no friends and is unhappy here...'
sounds like a lie to me... they know her too owl... if they upset her- she will seek revenge against them. She has demonstrated this already - both schools now have a policy that they dod not speak to her in person without at least one other member of staff present... the last time they didnt- she complained about the teacher accusing her of all sorts of naughtyness...
as to mental illness- i dont know about you- but running around the street at 2-am after throwing a bucket of water over your sleeping husband dont sound very rational to me...
i was scared to go to sleep... once she hit me on the head with a saucepan when asleep... rational?
when i was lying under a 32-ton lorry after an accident- she would not even come to pick me up... i was 2 miles from home... rational?
spitting in my face and punching me in front of her friends because i couldnt carry her bag? (i had my son in a backpack at the time and both hands full)...rational?
holding a knife towards me and screaming 'i will kill you'... normal?
hitting people when they are asleep? normal?
trying to run me over? normal?
have i ever hit her? i hardly raised my voice...
alternating from - 'you are my life darling...' to ' i pray every day for your death'
normal?
i dont have neg attitudes to anything really - except her behaviour...
as to giving evidence... its possible... expressing concerns? anakins school is already investigating her for poss cruelty.
Added By Owl1 on 17-12-2009
"she said exactly- 'we are going to sell it to your ex-wife by saying that we are concerned luke has said he has no friends and is unhappy here...'"
Thats not lying Obi. Most teachers will not go to a parent and say your child has serious behavioural issues, he is an isolate, he has no social skills, the other kids don't like him and keep their distance and we have had complaints from other parents as well about him. As a result he is miserable here most of the time and that is making him sad. ( although all of that may be true). I know many very rational parents who would react to that defensively by feeling they have to protect their children from what they perceive as an attack and accusation.
It is concerning that your son feels he has no friends though and its pleasing to hear that the school are addressing it and giving him extra support. Have you talked to them about the support you can give him and the things you can be doing with him to build his self esteem? And is it worth accessing some professional help for him as well as what the school is doing?
Obi people with mental illness are not always rational. People without mental illness are not always rational.
And sometimes people react irrationally when emotionally abused. Abuse is not all just the physical stuff.
alternating from - 'you are my life darling...' to ' i pray every day for your death'
normal?
Many emotionally abused women will tell you that represents exactly the rollercoaster of their emotions on a day to day basis. They will feel like their partner is their life but at other times they will feel so demoralised they just wish their tormentor was dead. They just want it all to end.
Fragmented people are often fragmented for a reason. Context is never posted here just reaction. The reactions are wrong, but often the actions that precede them are not right either. I don't make judgements until I know context. Judging people by their reactions when you are only told the reaction is not fair
"have i ever hit her? I hardly raised my voice..."
There are far more insiduous forms of abuse Obi. Silence, sulking, looks, sarcastic and demeaning comments, put downs, poking fun
Why are your son's school investigating her for possible cruelty. Should they not refer that to the appropriate child welfare authorities?
The sort of evidence school teachers are called on to give here are how the child appears at school. For example if a child is overly anxious and preoccupied with things that other children aren't, if they display disruptive behaviour patterns in the classroom following contact. Many teachers will tell you that children of separated parents behaviour issues will escalate if there is ongoing or new conflict between the parents. Many teachers will tell you that some children's behaviour will escalate immediately following contact periods but settles down in a couple of days and that this is a repeated pattern that occurs.
They are not called on to express an opinion of who the child should reside with, rather to descibe actual behaviour and reactions. They may also talk about the parent relationship. For example Mr Obi, contacts the school regularly, involves himself in activities, is interested in his son's progress and is responsive to meeting his sons needs when we address concerns.
Added By obiwan_kenobi on 17-12-2009
err... i am not the abuser- she was and is ...
did you forget that?
Added By Stuart on 17-12-2009
Obi....save your breath.
Owl will contradict everything you say and argue black is blue for the hell of it.
She wont ever believe you no matter what you say...
Sometimes I wonder if she is just a bit of an internet troll...
"So Stuart on your analysis any parent who does not live with their child is a "less than" parent"
Not at all Owl. Far from it, I just fail to see how having a conversation on the phone or on Skype a couple of times a week puts the NRP in the running for parent of the year award.
Its not parenting, its a bloody helpline.
Personally I couldnt cope with not having proper contact with my son where I can be a dad to him, where I can cuddle him and do things that parents do.
Sorry, but you can bleat on and explain all you like, there is NO way you can do any of this on the phone....
Added By Owl1 on 17-12-2009
"Not at all Owl. Far from it, I just fail to see how having a conversation on the phone or on Skype a couple of times a week puts the NRP in the running for parent of the year award.
Its not parenting, its a bloody helpline"
Like I say Stuart I see parenting in a far wider context than and more all encompassing than you do.
NRP's that spend every weekend with their child and pack it fill of activities may do things with their child but may not be a "parent" to their children. Any adult can cook, clean, play, take a child out on activities, but being a parent involves far more than that.
Its fun as a parent to "do" all those things with your child, but its not essential to parenting.
Most nrps spend some time with their children but they also spend large times apart. In the times apart they still remain a parent. How do they fulfill the very real parenting role that is not about "doing" with their children in that time?
I know you can't see this Stuart. And I know you need to "do" to feel a parent.
"Personally I couldnt cope with not having proper contact with my son where I can be a dad to him, where I can cuddle him and do things that parents do."
I thoroughly enjoy the "doing" things but I know it is just one part of parenting. Parenting is not about meeting the parents needs to cope. Its about meeting the child's needs to cope. My son faced a fairly "out there" situation. My role as a parent has been to help him cope through that in a way that does not leave him fragmented and emotionally disturbed. We have achieved that but it was not easy. I had to sacrifice some of my needs to do that.
If you were put in my situation you may have to find ways of coping Stuart to do whats best for your son to get through the situation. I hope you are not put in that situation.
But I found even though I missed the "doing" stuff and so did my son our emotional bond deepened so that we became closer over that time. Adversity does that sometimes.
Thats my reality, it may not be what you would think would happen, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 17-12-2009
as i say owl- you are now suggesting STRONGLY that she was the abused???
blimey- i didnt think you would ever openly say it...
thanks... that really made me feel SO good....
Added By Owl1 on 18-12-2009
I am suggesting Obi, that her behaviour is that commonly exhibited by emotionally abused women( and men) along with abusers.
Her expression of feelings from one end of the spectrum to the other is also something abuse victims often express. Most abuse victims don't passively sit back and take their abuse, ( passive or active) they fight back and hit out at the perpetrator in an effort to make themselves feel better . They then get seen as the perpetrator.
Who perpetrated the abuse (if any) and when it occurred who knows?
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 18-12-2009
you ARE a troll...
and you wont make me think any differently... I was THERE... she abused me for years.
I was HER victim... nothing you say or suggest - however clever you think you are- will change my memory of that time.
Its also common that abusers -seek to make themselves appear the victim is that something else you might be putting on me?
are you an abuser? I mean - earlier in this post I asked you directly and specifically not to post on my threads... did you listen? did you stop?
your comments are: insulting, wrong, odd, speculative and just plain nasty.
I notice you dont say things like this to the ladies that have been abused?
I wonder why?
its not that you are a man hating hippy? mmm?
Added By Owl1 on 18-12-2009
Obi I belive you when you say your suffered abuse at her hands and were her victim.
However we only have your voice here not hers. We don;t know whether she feels she suffered abuse at your hands and feels like she was your victim.
"Its also common that abusers -seek to make themselves appear the victim"
I don't think I said that Obi, in fact I have looked back and see that I didn't.
So it is not something I am putting on you, but since you suggested it, are you putting it on yourself, is it behaviour in yourself that you are inately aware of?
Only you can answer your truth on that. It may well be no.
"are you an abuser? I mean - earlier in this post I asked you directly and specifically not to post on my threads... did you listen? did you stop?'
This is a publice noticeboard Obi. You don't get to dictate who posts on your threads. That you think you can order people around like that is an indication of your authortarian attitudes and how you like to think you can command and control people, partcularly if they give perspectives you don't agree with. You can't do that Obi. Issues with power and control Obi????
"I notice you don't say things like this to the ladies that have been abused?
I wonder why?
its not that you are a man hating hippy? mmm?"
There you go again Obi playing the gender card and insinuating that because I dare disagree with you, a man, then I must be aman hating hippy.
Most women on this board who post of abuse simply state it. They don't list it in graphic detail, they don't post hate filled diatribes about their ex.
They don't post highly partonising posts calling their ex's "poor boys" and suggesting that the authorities need to bring them into line to convert them over to their way of thinking so that they will do exactly as they want.
If they did you and a few other blokes on here would be on here posting that they were controlling and power hungry. You may even resort into calling them abusive names.
So Obi, I like men but I don't like mysogynists. But if your response to any woman who challenges you is that she must be man hating hippy ( I actually think hippies are nice people btw and underserving of your prejudicial slur although I'm not one)
then you really are displaying your true colours.
Added By obiwan_kenobi on 18-12-2009
at least i dont demean an abused person like you do...
Added By Owl1 on 18-12-2009
I don't believe I have demeaned you Obi. Being abused does not mean that your ongoing behaviour and attitudes cannot be challengd and questioned. It does not render you immune from that.
You have demeaned me heaps by posting abusive insults but I don't care as they don't affect me.
I don't choose to feel abused by your abuse which makes you rather ineffective and impotent really.
So you really are not as powerful and influential as you think you are.
All bark but very little bite.
Which is probably what infuriates you most.
You don't have to abuse me Obi but you choose to.
Added By obiwan_kenobi on 18-12-2009
bollocks...
Added By Stuart on 18-12-2009
Like I said, you are pretty well wasting your time Im afraid Obi.
Owl has some set ideas and she is never ever wrong.
In particular her ideas on parenting are totally correct - she is our resident Dr Spock....
"are you an abuser? I mean - earlier in this post I asked you directly and specifically not to post on my threads... did you listen? did you stop?'
This is a publice noticeboard Obi. You don't get to dictate who posts on your threads. That you think you can order people around like that is an indication of your authortarian attitudes and how you like to think you can command and control people, partcularly if they give perspectives you don't agree with. You can't do that Obi. Issues with power and control Obi????"
How do you come to the conclusion that Obi has issues with power and control?
How does asking you to stop doing something make him controlling??
Strange....
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 18-12-2009
Stuart- you are right...
sorry mate
Added By Owl1 on 18-12-2009
Stuart, I don't think my ideas on parenting are totally correct or that I always get it right. Parenting is a very steep learning curve.
However I don't believe I am a bad parent as you have implied because I don't spend every waking hour thinking about and spending time with my children. I don't think you are a bad parent for not spending every waking hour with your son. I don't think you a bad parent for going out and pursuing things outside of the relationship with your son.
I do see parenting in a much wider context than just doing the physical things for and with our children. Its about far more than that. I believe you will do far more than that for your son.
What I do believe we can do as parents is ask what is best for our kids in any given situation. Sometimes we will have to parent in situations and against a background we don't like. My preference would have been to parent throughout my children's childhood in a marriage ( or cohabitation) relationship with their father. It didn't work out like that and so like most separated parents I had the contortions of pwc or nrp to adapt to. I became first a single parent pwc and later an nrp with a child in an entirely different country. That presented new challenges to adapt to. But the important thing is to guide our children through those changes in away that maintains their safety, sense of security, self esteem so that they can fulfill their potential and become the best people they can. Sometimes that will involve sacrafices for us as parents but parenting is often about self sacrafice to make things better for our kids.
We are charged with a big ask as parents. I look at the end results, three happy well adjusted, caring, high achieving and successful young adults and think I have done OK. It sounds like you are doing a great job with your lad too.
And I get tired of the slur that some men dump on mothers who dare do something outside of the home that does not necessarily involve their children. Both you and Obi have done that to me on this thread,
If a woman posted on here that men don't care about their children as much for doing that you would both be outraged.
Stuart its the abusive and commanding way Obi makes his requests. When your ex- wife asks you to stop doing something you come on here and rant that she is controlling. When a man on here tells a woman that they are not to post on their threads you seem to think they have a right to indulge in the "controlling" type of behaviour you would accuse your ex of and defend them for that.
Strange....
Why is that Stuart?
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 18-12-2009
'when a man tells a woman' you really have your head up your sexist ass dont you?
as i recall- you are the only one defending my ex... in fact- she was the abused eh owl...?
that makes me the abuser...
and you wonder why i may be piqued at you?
'abusive and commanding way Obi makes his requests'
i said, 'I mean - earlier in this post I asked you directly and specifically not to post on my threads... did you listen? did you stop?'
that was abusive? asking questions?
you are easily offended...
but- of course your suggestions that I was the abuser in my 'relationship' should not cause me any offence? or the suggestion i am a mysoginist? i have a great relationship with the women in my life- really- i have never been called sexist...
there are only two women in this world i have issues with at the moment- my ex wife- and you.
for different reasons of course...
you do make me laugh though - why?
because you talk the talk owl, but you dont walk the walk...
you say you are all 'better now' and centered and balanced like a regular little Yoda... but i see through you - like glass... you hate your ex husband- for what he did... and you have buried it under a layer of 'hippyness' and bullshit...
thats why you have such an issue with me...
you do know i am not your hubby owl? just checking...
stuart is right though...
Added By Stuart on 18-12-2009
"When your ex- wife asks you to stop doing something............"
Lol.....
My ex wife has NEVER asked me anything. She has always either demanded or simply taken.....
Added By Owl1 on 19-12-2009
"you are easily offended..."
Obi I have not once been offended by anything you have posted on this thread or any of your other threads. You issue insults, proabably intended to offend and I just think there goes Obi losing his temper again and off on one.
Like I say I am ignoring your request to not post on your threads as this is a public noticeboard. I am happy for you to choose not to read my posts if they have a negative impact on you. You can also choose not to respond to them. Take responsibility for moderating your own behaviour, don't expect others to pander to your needs.
And you said "I would be very happy in future if you would NOT POST ON MY THREADS." Then you went on to say some abusive things. You don't own the threads Obi but in any case you have gone on responding every time I have posted since.
"you say you are all 'better now' and centered and balanced like a regular little Yoda... but i see through you - like glass... you hate your ex husband- for what he did... and you have buried it under a layer of 'hippyness' and bullshit..."
No Obi I don't hate my ex husband at all. I accept you hate your ex wife with a passion but thats you, its not me.
Some people can come through some fairly crazy stuff and not hate at the end of it. That might be impossible for you to imagine as it isn't your experience. However there is hope out there Obi for you. You may not end up being like your ex-wife who has hated her father for most of her life. However if you choose to hate for the rest of your life thats your choice I guess.
Rest assured Obi if my ex read any of your posts on here he would deem you a right plonker ( that doesn't mean I think you are BTW but I well imagine my ex would) for most of your postings so I have no illusions there. You really are too quite different blokes.
If you don't want to be called sexist Obi don't make patronising comments about women. However many sexist men have great relationships with women, they just hold sexist attitudes.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 19-12-2009
ahh... you are wrong- i DONT hate my ex wife- I hate what she does...
I have moved on from the abuse she gave me DIRECTLY... just not the indirect stuff she does now...
I am going to breach her though- in jan... when it cant affect the boys hols...
i dont care if you call me sexist - i know i am not...
i think you are lying about your feelings towards men... and its the driving force behind your holier than thou attitude...
hate runs deep... you raged at your husband (your words) noone gets over that hate without some residual taste...
ergo your attitude towards me...
Added By Owl1 on 19-12-2009
Obi even when I raged at my ex, albeit it very briefly I did not hate him. I have never hated him in my life and never will. You can rage at people you love, just because you feel angry with someone does not mean you hate them, or don't love them.
I didn't like some of his behaviour towards the end of our marriage and following on from our separation but I actually felt a lot of compassion towards him at the time he was exhibiting it.
Im can express anger, let it go and move on. You may have trouble believing that that is possible but that is because you tend to get stuck in your anger and then it consumes you.
I hope my ex has a happy and fulfilling life not least because I want my children to have a father who is happy and fulfilled. But I'd wish him that anyway. We actually had a fairly happy marriage overall something even he acknowledges. Our time together were some of the most productive of our lives and there were plenty of happy memories. I didn't come out of my marriage feeling like it was a complete disaster. I am grateful for what that relationship gave me. I am grateful to my ex for the things he gave me. But I am also happy to be in a new phase of my life.
You can think I am lying about my feelings towards men if you like Obi. I know I am not.
What attitude towards you Obi. I actually have no issues with you, although I accept you have some with me as you have posted on here you have. I wish you peace and happiness and I hope you find that some day. In the meantime if you want to keep going around in circles then feel free to do that also if you think it is helping. I think it just leaves you stuck.
Breaching your ex in January for the a breach of Contact that has already occurred and that you gave your consent to is just plain dumb Obi. Thats not how you go about enforcing Orders.
Going to Court to ask that the Order be reviewed does make sense though.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 19-12-2009
i did not give my consent to it... I had no choice- she put me in a position that was deliberately calculated to cause a problem - it was: upset one of the boys and get what I wanted or not upset the boys and she gets what she wanted...
if i allow her to get away with it- she will do it again...
I dont want much in life- owl- just for her to OBEY the order...
she wants me to keep the kids next time they come over...i know how her 'mind' works...
of course that would start another war... a war she wants. I dont.
I should have continued with the court action from last year... instead of relying on her good nature and feelings towards the children.
she dont have any...
as to your last comments- you must think i am stupid and fell off a christmas tree... i know EXACTLY what you think of me- i cant change that of course...
nothing i say or do - or anything i post about her will change your mind set that i was the abuser- and she the victim.
funny- dont remember you saying that to any of the lady posters... they would have savaged you i suppose...
oh and rage is defined in the collins english dictionary as:
rage [reɪdʒ]
n
1. intense anger; fury
2. violent movement or action, esp of the sea, wind, etc.
3. great intensity of hunger, sexual desire, or other feelings
4. aggressive behaviour associated with a specified environment or activity road rage school rage
5. a fashion or craze (esp in the phrase all the rage)
6. Austral and NZ informal a dance or party
vb (intr)
1. to feel or exhibit intense anger
2. (esp of storms, fires, etc.) to move or surge with great violence
3. (Medicine / Pathology) (esp of a disease or epidemic) to spread rapidly and uncontrollably
4. Austral and NZ informal to have a good time
[via Old French from Latin rabiēs madness]
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged 6th Edition 2003. © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
nasty...
Added By Suvla1915 on 19-12-2009
Almost as nasty as called some one a "nasty, spiteful fucked up bitch"
Those sound like words of hate, to me.
Anyway, sorry to interrupt, it sounds like you are both enjoying the discussion, though to be honest it reads a bit like this: I'm so unhappy, no you don't have to be unhappy, yes, I do have to be unhappy, life is terrible, no, it doesn't have to be that way think positive like me, no, it's no use you are wrong, you are not happy, yes I am, no, your life is terible too. No it isn't, yes it is.
Round and round and round...
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 19-12-2009
well i calls 'em like i sees 'em...
i dont hate her... how can i hate such a screwed up person? she is in need of empathy - not hate...
hard though- when the person keeps sticking a knife into you... hard to feel empathy for the person that want you dead- think its an overstatement? do you know how many murders are domestic related? 98%....
she is all of those and more... we are not talking about Mother Theresa here- Sulva- but a woman that is completely dis-functional. I have more empathy for her than you may think... but that empathy does not temper my horror at her behavior towards me and the boys.
may i remind you of her track record of abuse and denial of contact?
what did i do to her?
when she came here she had £30 in her pocket- and a bag of clothes... I was taken in by her beauty (she is a looker) and recognized someone else like me that was lonely... I really tried sooooooooo hard to make it work... however- it was doomed to failure ... dis-functional people make poor partners... even when the violence started (with all of my training - i still failed to realise how deep i was into an abusive relationship) i kept on trying... hiding bruises - keeping contact secretly with my family (i wasn't allowed to call them at home...) i defended her to them and my friends who told me directly that i was heading for an iceberg...
in the end it took the look of horror on my sons face when he witnessed her trying to strangle me that pressed my reset button.
in that moment i knew i had to get out... to survive- and to remove the trigger to her malevolent behavior...
it worked- to a point... now she just uses the children to get to me. At this moment in time she has only one focus of hate and rage- me... before me it was her father.
One day she may wake up and see that there is more to life than hate... and rage... the rage she feels is very real to her and is with her 24-7. Where it comes from - i dont know... i guess her mum dying so young... it really is sad. if she had been cared for differently - i suppose she would be a different person - and i would not be on this site... venting.
choose to be happy? if that could be done- there will be a lot of psychologists and Doctors out of work pretty quick...
think positive? all for it... think unrealistically? nope.... think with flawed logic? nope...
e.g. you can be a great parent over the phone... no you cant... if only owl had said, 'i was the best parent I could have been in the circumstances that were given to me..'
i would have been on her side all the way... because that makes sense... i suspect that Stuart would have agreed with that one too... its the situation we (NRPS) find our selves in always... 2nd best...
but STATING (not suggesting) that you can be as good a parent over the pone 12000 miles away from you kid - as a parent (of equal ability) that is in the same house is, frankly, just plain silly...
Added By Owl1 on 19-12-2009
Lol Suvla thats about it. Round and round and round.
Raging - when I used that word I was describing the following personal feeling and action -
My experience at the time Obi was a feeling of intense anger and hurt at betrayal. By raging I meant a lot of crying and some fairly heated arguments with my ex, although for my recovery I made a choice to stop any interaction or contact with him for a while. The crying gradually subdued but I am grateful for the friends and family who listened and supported me through that situation. As normally happens in any loss situation I have moved on past that phase, although it took a lot of work at the time.
When I said raging that was meaning I was trying to convey.So there you have it defined first hand , you didn't need to revert to a dictionary to try and decipher what I was meaning.
I raged Obi because I loved not because I hated. A person I loved very deeply had just hurt and betrayed me very deeply. So there was no hate their in the first place for any residue to be left. I lost trust and respect for my ex but not love.
You seem to be raging because you feel a person you hate or dislike intensely is hurting you.
Obi it sounds like you have lots of issues with your ex. You are one very angry man.
I hope you wake up one day and see there is more to life than hate and rage too.
"choose to be happy? if that could be done- there will be a lot of psychologists and Doctors out of work pretty quick...'
Perhaps you need to see a psychologist to get some help with that. I know I did and I benefitted from that. Its not easy Obi but you have a responsibility to both yourself and your sons to do something to drag yourself out of the mire of despair, depression, frustration, bitterness and unproductive anger you seem stuck in.
Anyway nothing I will say will change your entrenced views and thinking. I am not sure why are so threatened by the thought of an nrp who is happy and feels a whole parent and has children that feel the same despite the fact they don't live together and don't spend the same amount of time with both parents. That should give you hope that things can be OK. I am not sure why you are so threatened by someone who is not consumed by anger rage and hate for their ex following their marriage break up as that should demonstrate to you that it is possible.
But at least you are getting an opportunity to express and vent your intense anger at your ex.
I m happy for you to keep imagining that my life is terrible like yours if it makes you feel better. But I like my life and feel very happy. That is my reality even if you can't accept that.
I wish you well with Court proceedings. Be sure the focus is on your sons needs and keep an open mind to come up with the best solution for them.
Added By Owl1 on 19-12-2009
"e.g. you can be a great parent over the phone... no you cant... if only owl had said, 'i was the best parent I could have been in the circumstances that were given to me..'
i would have been on her side all the way... because that makes sense... i suspect that Stuart would have agreed with that one too... its the situation we (NRPS) find our selves in always... 2nd best..."
I'm sorry you (and Stuart perhaps) feel second best as parents Obi, but I don't feel that way. You may just have to accept that not all nrp's feel like you and Stuart. I've never felt second best as a parent so it is not a feeling I'm familiar with at all.
My Dad was an alcoholic. At times his addiction meant that he was not always the best parent he could be. When he died we all said and believed he was the best parent he could be given his personal circumstances. ( his addiction). None of us see him as a 2nd best parent to our mother, although he was the nrp to my sisters and our mother was far more involved in our lives and probably the more effective parent. We loved him just the same. It was not a competition.
Most parents strive to be the best parents they can be in the circumstances that are given to them Obi. Many Pwc 's find parenting without another loving supportive adult in the house that is connected through blood to their children has some very real challenges. Often those circumstances are not of their choosing either but they get on and make the most of it.
Added By Stuart on 19-12-2009
Owl, you dont believe that domestic violence towards men happens do you?
I wonder how you would be if Obi was a woman?
Your attitude quite frankly stinks. You stop short of telling him to "get over it".
Even if Obi does hate his wife, dont you reckon he has a right to?
I have noticed that you have never condemned his ex, infact almost the opposite... you pointed out that we only have Obis side of the story....well, the same can be said of everyone who posts on here - including you!
I reckon you should leave this thread now as you arent helping at all which I thought was the whole point of this website??
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 19-12-2009
'You seem to be raging because you feel a person you hate or dislike intensely is hurting you'
err... what part of the statement- 'i dont hate my ex wife- i hate what she does'
do you dont understand...
'Obi it sounds like you have lots of issues with your ex. You are one very angry man'
err... you think? really?
but angry with what? mmm...
'Anyway nothing I will say will change your entrenced views and thinking'
well there is something we agree on at last... if by entrenched thinking you mean 'do i love and miss my children'
and
'i think its wrong for someone to stop me seeing my children'...
dead right there...
i dont feel threatened by you owl... i just dont agree with you ...
AS I SAID ABOVE- 'e.g. you can be a great parent over the phone... no you cant... if only owl had said, 'i was the best parent I could have been in the circumstances that were given to me..'
i would have been on her side all the way... because that makes sense... i suspect that Stuart would have agreed with that one too... its the situation we (NRPS) find our selves in always... 2nd best...
but STATING (not suggesting) that you can be as good a parent over the pone 12000 miles away from you kid - as a parent (of equal ability) that is in the same house is, frankly, just plain silly...
see?
i notice you havent addressed ANY of that part of my post... i wonder why?
i didnt rage against her... and dont... I dont miss her. I dont love her. I dont have any feelings toward her...
I escaped- it was a relief! a relief to GET AWAY from her.
I miss my kids. Plain and simple. I wont see them for 3-weeks. 3-weeks ago i started to see them again after another 4-week gap...
its hard for them and me...
i wouldnt mention her again... really if she allowed the access she PROMISED to do in court...
hard to understand?
Added By Owl1 on 19-12-2009
"Owl, you dont believe that domestic violence towards men happens do you?"
Yes I do Stuart, I am on the governance group of the local branch of what is the equivalent of your Women's Aid organisation and we often refer men who seek our assistance to agencies and people that help with those issues.
I also have male clients who have been the victims of domestic violence.
Obi is perfectly entitled to hate his ex Stuart. If he wants to let that hate take him over and destroy him he can do that too.
"err... what part of the statement- 'i dont hate my ex wife- i hate what she does'
do you dont understand..."
Which is why I added on " or intensely dislike Obi. I don't think you can deny your intemsely dislike her when you come out with comments like ""nasty, spiteful fucked up bitch"
I never said you felt threatened by me Obi, I said you seem to feel threatened by the idea that an nrp can be happy. Its not down to whether you agree with my feelings on the matter or not. You don't get to determine what other peoples feelings are for them. But if you want to disagree that I feel happy when I have told you that I do you can. I can't see what good it does you.
"but STATING (not suggesting) that you can be as good a parent over the pone 12000 miles away from you kid - as a parent (of equal ability) that is in the same house is, frankly, just plain silly... "
I don't have to explain it to you Obi, me and my kid know it can be done, he has been reading your posts as I have been chatting to him. He really thinks you have no idea what you are talking about. He thinks I am wasting my time talking to you as you have no idea what parenting is. I don't entirely agree with him on that, but thats his view.
At times he thinks I have been the better parent as I have been more understanding of his feelings. You may find your sons feel the same way about you.
I am sorry you will miss your kids Obi, most separated parents know what that feels like and have to endure it. You are not alone in that. Most of us can give you coping strategies, its up to you whether you choose to make use of them.
What plans do you and your partner, step-children and extended family have for Christmas and the festive season? Something special I hope to cherish and make happy memories.
Added By obiwan_kenobi on 19-12-2009
'I never said you felt threatened by me Obi'
err...
'I am not sure why you are so threatened by someone who is not consumed by anger rage and hate for their ex following their marriage break up as that should demonstrate to you that it is possible'
christ on a bike- you really dont know what you are even saying...
'I don't have to explain it to you Obi, me and my kid know it can be done, he has been reading your posts as I have been chatting to him. He really thinks you have no idea what you are talking about. He thinks I am wasting my time talking to you as you have no idea what parenting is. I don't entirely agree with him on that, but thats his view'
lol... like mother -like son...
he has formed an opinion of my abilities as a parent - based on these posts... lol...
what would HE know about parents? with a dad that kidnapped him and a mum that lives 12000 miles away... great role models...
i am a Police Officer- I am working every day over xmas, eve, day, boxing and nyears day...
thanks for asking though...
Added By obiwan_kenobi on 19-12-2009
i will still be calling every day to hear my sons... I am not a Christian owl... she says she is but dont behave like any Christian I know...
I dont hate anyone... I dont like her- obviously... but dont like is a long way from an emotion like hate...
I suspect you think i sit rocking myself backwards and forwards- crying an sobbing for my poors sons...
nope...
i get on with life- what other option is open?
I love my life with my partner. She is a lovely person, my step kids are great...
The only fly on the cake- is that i dont see my sons as much as they want- and i want...
i know I must go to court again... thing is ... i have a small amount of fear- that its going to make her worse...
even stuart sees how bigoted you are owl... and unfair... funny old world eh...
as i say... dont be afraid to say you dont believe me...
Added By Owl1 on 20-12-2009
Lol Obi, lots of people have to work Christmas day, most manage to make the most of it anyway. Its good and sensible your boys get to spend those days of the holidays with their non-working parent if you are otherwise occupied, It will keep ypuir mind of your angst too. It may have been a miserable day for them hanging around waiting for you to come home from work.
I am not sure you have to be a christian to enjoy the festive season Obi or celebrate on Christmas day.
Its good to hear that you will be calling your boys everyday.
I wouldn't place too much credence on Stuart thinking me a bigot Obi to support your opinion that I am a bigot. He may think that but he is hardly known on these board for his enlightened views. He has had digs at a fair few women posters on here and been very patronising just in case that has passed you by. Most of those women have been the first to lend him support when things have collapsed in his life. I'd have a good laugh if Stuart thought of and called me a bigot. It would be rather amusing and ironic.
My son is a fairly well rounded successful young man Obi who is progessing his dreams. He has very good social skills, interacts well with others and is well liked by his peers. He is respectful to others, caring and is willing to stick up for the underdog. He is confident in his heritage and who he is as a person. I am immensely proud of him and he is quite proud of me and tells me so. He believes he has been well parented overall. In fact children don't grow up like that unless they are well parented. I don't take all the credit for that, some is due to his Dad.
The important thing is he feels and knows he was well parented. he knew he was loved by both parents and could access support when he needed it. He knows that support continues.
Going to Court can make things worse Obi, particulalrly if it escalates the conflict between you and your ex. All the research in this area points to very bad outcomes for children of separated parents whose parents have high conflict.
Research also shows that children do not necessarily suffer any bad outcomes from medium to long periods of separation from one or either parent.
I think you should go to Court anyway. You can assess things as they go along if such an action is detrimental to or will benefit your sons.
Added By obiwan_kenobi on 20-12-2009
i am working 10-6pm xmas day... so i wont get lunch this year...
Its not the type of job that gives a lot of ordinary time off... but i accept it...
yes- thing is i should be off work now with them..18-25 dec. thanks to her motives (whatever they may be...) thats another holiday ruined...
miserable! lol... they love my home - they have cats and a dog at my home- and they have a great relationship with their step bro and step mum... that, of couse, is another thorn in her side... well more of a poison arrow actually...
the order says this year they are with their mum 24-dec to 02 jan... so, i wouldnt have seen them anyway.
glad your son is ok... since he is not a parent himself- and dont know me- or has witnessed me in any parenting situations- his opinion has little validity... down to his immaturity i guess... still he will grow out of it...
escalate conflict?
well - thats like saying the normandy landings escalated world war 2...
we are already at war...
yes- true about separation ... but they shouldnt have too eh?
you parented the best you could with what you had- phone calls... if you want to beleive you could not have done better in any way- then dream on.
Added By Owl1 on 20-12-2009
Aah well Obi you can have a lovely tea instead ( or do you English call it dinner?)
Are you taking a break still from the 18th to 24th or are you going to delay that until another time?
Obi as I keep saying both me and my son are very happy with my parenting through his stay in the UK. It fulfilled both our needs. But you can believe what you want. As you say of my son as you have neither witnessed me in parenting situations or experienced my parenting your opinion have very little validity. Down to your immaturity Obi?????
My sons words about your views were "this guy just does not get what parenting actually is?" You don't have to live with both your parents to be parented by them. If he got that he would understand. Presumably you have no experience of being brought up with separated parents at any stage of your upbringing. My son does have that experience so he is probably more experienced in these things than you to comment. He has lived the past 4 years with his father's np but although she does a lot of physical things that contribute to his care he does not in any way feel parented by her. ( In fact both my son and my ex don't think she has no clue about parenting or has any parenting skills at all even though her 9 year old son is physically well cared for, but I digress).
If your postings on this board are any indication I'd say my son has a lot more maturity than you. He has certainly handled being physically separated from his loved ones more maturely than you seem capable of.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 20-12-2009
working...
touche...
i still think you dont read my posts - i have said 3- times now... 'you have done the best you could with the crap contact you were forced to have'...
now- if your son grows up ok... then thats down to all of you adapting to the situation- and doing the best you can...
not quite the same thing-you are advocating above- its almost as if phone parenting is being sold by you as an alternative... thats just wrong...
its the best of a bad job...
does your son have any children?
your son cant make that comment- because- he isnt a parent so has NO experience of being one and - he HAS had two people around him!
he may not FEEL parented (what does that feel like anyway?) but I bet he has been... 'but although she does a lot of physical things that contribute to his care'
lol...good enought to cook wash and clean but not care for? mmm... very empathic... and not a little sexist too? where did he get that from?
so really- he has been brought up by his dad and NP plus input from you as well...
not quite the original picture...
my kids dont have that... its just her on her own- (noone else will live -or go out with her!) and me...
Maturity has a lot more elements to it that a few posting on a board... admitting you are wrong, for example... holding opinions based on what you think may be happening instead of what you KNOW from experience...
dissing the ex's NP? not very mature...
oh what? its different? because its you and your opinion? where did you get the data from? your ex? your son? hardly unbiased...
ooooooohh the last line got me right there.... really...
ha!
Added By Owl1 on 20-12-2009
"your son cant make that comment- because- he isnt a parent so has NO experience of being one and - he HAS had two people around him!"
My son can make that comment Obi because he has experienced being parented. he knows it is far more than having his physical needs met. When and if he gets to be a oparent he will be able to put his expeience of being parented into parctice as a parent.
"he may not FEEL parented (what does that feel like anyway?) but I bet he has been... 'but although she does a lot of physical things that contribute to his care'
lol...good enought to cook wash and clean but not care for? mmm... very empathic... and not a little sexist too? where did he get that from?"
Do you really have to ask what being parented feels like Obi, can you not relate back to how you were parented and continue to be?
Obi I often tell my son he should acknowledge and be grateful for the physical things his father's np does for him and he tells me he always says thank you after a meal or when she does his washing. ( I'm sure he does, his father always role modelled that type of respect to him when we were together). I'm grateful to her that she does those things for him. It saves me having to do it ( cheap nanny eh!!! - joking Obi)
However he does not feel any emotional connection with her, she plays no part in any parenting decisions, or in any of his discussions about his future. She would not go out of her way for him, she cooks a meal for him if she is cooking it for others in the house or does his washing if she is putting a load on. No part of her day has ever been structured around his needs. If he had to go anywhere his Dad took him or he made his own way. His view is that if anything happened to his Dad they would probably lose all contact. I think he quite likes her, he certainly does not feel any animosity to her but he does not feel close to her. He would not expect that she would ever make any effort to continue their relationship so both of them could take it or leave it. She has never spoken with or acknowledged our daughters in 5 years. They simply don't know her. She has told my ex that she could not cope with him ever leaving the UK and she will never leave the UK. So my ex has not seen 2 of his children for 4 years ( his choice I guess). He apparently can't afford to pay their airfares over there as he has to support her and her son.
So no Obi he was not brought up by his father and his np with input from me. He lived with me and his Dad for 14 years, then me for one year on my own, then he has lived with his father for the last 4 years from age 15 to 19 residing in the same house was his father's np and her son. My son was brought up by me and his father. He knows that, he doesn't have any doubts about that.
I hope that has filled you in on the original picture.
"dissing the ex's NP? not very mature..."
I didn't diss her Obi I just repeated what both my son and my ex have said about her parenting of her son. I simply repaeated their opinions. They think she hasn't a clue. I can't comment as I have not seen it in action and it does not much interest me. I have no direct experience of her. Anecdotally her son has issues, according to his mother he is mental (nice) but I have always been quick to defend him when my son has talked about his behavioural issues or my eldest daughter has recounted to me her father's views on the matter as I don't think it could have been easy for the wee bloke to be uprooted from his intact family and then have to adjust to having a new man in the house who by all accounts does not like him much. According to my ex its because his mother does not have a clue how to parent and set appropriate limits.
"Maturity has a lot more elements to it that a few posting on a board... admitting you are wrong, for example... holding opinions based on what you think may be happening instead of what you KNOW from experience"
I agree Obi, but if you want to demonstrate your immaturity by continuing to hold the opinion that you think you know about how me and my son feel about our parenting relationship, something you have no direct experience of and choose not to admit you are wrong or acknowledge that is how we feel then thats OK. But thanks for proving my point.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 20-12-2009
However he does not feel any emotional connection with her
lol
now you are a mind reader... i suppose you need to take that line really- or you wil end up like my ex... opps...
and thanks for contradicting yourself again and again and again...
you dint diss her? but I diss my ex when i say she is a poor parent?
one rule for you eh...
' by continuing to hold the opinion that you think you know about how me and my son feel about our parenting relationship,'
but it ok for you to say how my sons, my ex feels and i feel? lol
'I can't comment as I have not seen it in action and it does not much interest me. I have no direct experience of her'
true- but you and your son can comment on me and my parenting skills?
lol
this is too easy... like shooting fish in a barrel...
Added By Owl1 on 20-12-2009
"However he does not feel any emotional connection with her"
Obi those are my sons words.
No I didn't diss her. My son and my ex believe she has poor parenting skills. I can't comment as I don't know her and I have not seen her parenting skills in action. I am simply repeating what they have said. I am expressing their opinion of that as told to me.
You can diss your ex and express an opinion about her parenting skills if you like Obi. But is is only your opinion not a statement of fact a is my son's and my ex's opinion above.
"but it ok for you to say how my sons, my ex feels and i feel? lol"
I know you feel angry about your situation as you keep telling us that. I know you have an opinion that your ex feels angry at you and hates you. I don't know how she feels, I only have your opinion. I know you have an opinion that your sons feel terrible when they are not with you. I don't know how your sons feel, I only have your opinion. If your wife told me directly she is angry at you and she hates you, I'd believe her. ( that does not make her a bad person by the way, just like if you are angry at her or hated her you would not be a bad person). If your sons told me directly they feel terrible when they are not with you I'd believe them.
"true- but you and your son can comment on me and my parenting skills?"
Obi my son was not commenting on your parenting skills. He was commenting on the fact that you do not understand how parenting is viewed from the perspective of the child( be they adult or child) who is parented.
He understands that throughout his child he has been parented by two parents whether he lived with those parents or not. He is amazed you don't get that.
It seems from your parent perspective you don't believe you are parenting unless you have actual contact with your children, be that phone, or in person.
For my son ( and for me as a child of a parent too) his parents are just always there with a constancy of love and support on offer.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 20-12-2009
you posted...
'He really thinks you have no idea what you are talking about. He thinks I am wasting my time talking to you as you have no idea what parenting is'
that sounds like a critic of my parenting skills...
anyway...
Added By Owl1 on 21-12-2009
It wasn't a critic of your parenting skolls Obi, it was a comment on your concept of what parenting is. you think it is the physical direct and indirect contact doing, its far more to that for children.
Added By obiwan_kenobi_again on 21-12-2009
lol... ok...
but you saying it is ... dont make it so...
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