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Subject: Taking Children on Holiday
Posted By Ess on 31-01-2010
My ex and I have been divorced for 5 years and our relationship seems to have deteriorated year on year.
I sent him an email (the only way he will communicate with me) saying that I would like to take our children to South Africa for 2 weeks to see their grandparents. Unfortunately, this will interfere with two of the weekends that they would normally be spending time with him. I said that I was happy to adapt arrangements however he wanted so that they wouldn't go for more that 3 weeks without seeing him. I asked him to let me know his views by the following day as I had managed to find some reasonable flights which could be held for 24 hours.
He didn't reply to my email (I know he has mobile access to his emails) so I phoned him and left a voicemail the following morning asking him to let me know if he had any objections.
He emailed me several hours later ranting about child abduction, me needing his permission to take his children out of the country, and everything I've ever done that he doesn't agree with since our divorce.
I didn't book the flights and managed to get them to hold them until 10am tomorrow morning while I looked into it.
These flights will cost around £18000 and I'm worried that he could do something to stop us from going. I realise he could apply for a court order to stop me taking them out of the country but can't see that he would have any valid grounds for this... but what if he called the airport or something and said that I'd abducted his children? What would happen?
He is very very very angry and his emails are always abusive. Often he calms down after a good ranting session at me but I really never know.
I do know that if I'd "asked his permission" as he would want, he would say no. I have always encouraged as much contact as possible between him and the kids and any request for changes or additional contact have always been happily agreed to by me.
Should I book these tickets tomorrow morning? Any advice would be great.
Follow up comments
Added By sometimesitdoesn'twork on 31-01-2010
Strictly speaking you do not require his consent to go abroad for a holiday of than a month. s13 Children Act 1989 says where a residence order is in force with respect to a child, no person may remove him from the UK without either the written consent of every person who has parental responsibility for the child or the leave of the court. So there is no restriction when there is no residence order. The Act continues the section above does not prevent the removal of a child, for a period of less than one month, by the person in whose favour the residence order is made.
Under s1 Child Abduction Act 1984?? it is a criminal offence to remove a child under 16 from the UK without the appropriate consent. Further down (s6 if I remember correctly) it says it isn't an offence if consent is unreasonably refused. Refusing consent for a holiday once or twice a year is unreasonable.
I would book the tickets but to avoid any last minute hassle should your ex apply for prohibited steps order, contact the police etc apply to court for a specific issue order to resolve the matter and represent yourself.
Added By sometimesitdoesn'twork on 31-01-2010
Sorry the first sentence should read *less* than one month.
Added By Ess on 31-01-2010
Thanks STIDW. There seems to be such a lot of conflicting advice on the internet about this. I am going to do as you've suggested and apply for a specific issue order... it might be a handy thing to have in my pocket when we go to the airport just in case. Much appreciated.
Added By Ess on 31-01-2010
Can you tell me which forms I would need to fill in for a specific issue order? Is it the C100 and C1a?
Added By Jools123 on 01-02-2010
Do you have a court order? Are you breaking the court order to take your children to S. Africa?
£18000 on flights, reasonable. I assume you mean £1800.
Has he got two weeks back to back with the children? Why not change your date to fit in around the time when your ex hasn't got the kids.
Added By Stuart on 01-02-2010
Whether you have a contact order etc makes no difference.
You can take them away for a 2 week holiday without his bloody permission.
For heavens sakes....just do it and tell him to boil his control freak head...
Added By Jools123 on 01-02-2010
If it breaks the order and no provisions for holidays have been set out then it does make a difference.
That was how I got extended access either side of Christmas because my ex was taking my daughter away for less than 28 days but I had x2 contact dates set out in my court order!
Added By Ess on 02-02-2010
Oooops - yes, I meant £1800! No Jools, there is no court order. I would love to change the date to make it fit better, but I can't & won't take the kids out of school and it's the way our weekends fall over the easter holidays. I'd be more than happy for him to have more contact either side of the holiday but he really doesn't want it - doesn't bother to contact them during the two weeks between contact weekends and never attends parents evenings, school plays etc... I know he loves the kids but he's using them to hurt me and I can't do anything at all about it.
Thanks Stuart - as a last ditch attempt, I emailed him last night asking if he would agree to permit me to take the children on holiday, asked him to provide reasons if he did not give permission and reassured that I had no intention of abducting our children. I booked the flights this morning as late as I could and this afternoon received another pointscoring email filled with anger. He goads me, trying to get me to respond to his bullying and it takes every little bit of self control not to stoop to his level. I know that if I apply for a specific issue order he will be furious and dread what that might bring but I don't know if I have much choice. I'm so sick of this - it's been 6 years and we've both moved on with our lives - new partners, kids etc.
Rant over! Thanks x
Added By Stuart on 02-02-2010
If he wants to stop you from going then he is going to need a prohibitive steps order.
He will have to show bloody good reason for you not going and if he uses the so called fear that you are going to abduct them then he is going to need to give a good rationale.
For example, have you recently quit your job, sold your house or given notice on a rental?
What tangible evidence would he have to support such an application? Err....none!
You have no order so dont beat yourself up. Go and enjoy your time away. Which part are you heading to?
I have family in Cape Town and was hoping to visit for the world cup but sadly its all too expensive and just a tad dangerous!!
Added By Ess on 02-02-2010
Thanks Stuart - I think the only reason he would have is that it interferes with two of his weekends but as I've been clear about doing what I can to make up for that, I don't think that's a good enough reason. My only worry is that as my son said, "he'll probably have a go at us about it" but I can't control what he does or says to the kids.
I'm going to Jo'burg where my parents live and we'll head out to the bush from there for a few days for some game viewing and rest... heaven!
I hope you get the chance to visit soon. Cape Town is so lovely and less dangerous if you stay with family who know where/where not to go.
Added By why? on 10-02-2010
go on holiday. its the childrens grandparents. its family and maintaining relationships with family, especially after divorce is extremely important. ridiculous to think that the childrten cant go visit their grandparents. idiot. not you. him.
if you dont have acontact schedule/order by court then its clearly flexible. thats why most people dont have court orders for contact. you say he has asked for changesin the past and you have accomodated and thats important if you expect the same in return. ignore him.just send him the dates of travel and when you will be back. i assume he knows your parents address. if not, give him a contact number or something and thats it.
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